Some on here say that the players won't tank.

[jimmy eat jazz]

Why ask what we think when you're not interested in our responses? I've seen numerous well-reasoned responses, but all you do is dismiss them, so you can make your point yet again, which I think most of us get by now. There are numerous reasons why Hayward, Favors, Kanter, Burks, Burke et al. might not want to tank:

1. Professional pride
2. Competitiveness (hate to lose)
3. Felt obligation to give fans their money's worth
4. Fear of losing position to someone else
5. Coming up on contract and want to prove value
6. Want to build/be part of a winning culture
7. Etc.

All of the above seem legit reasons to me, and there might be others.

As for me, I hope to hell that the young guys don't dog it or enter tank mode. If the Jazz as an organization wants to tank, and thus manipulate playing time or the DL list, that's its choice, but you can bet that the C5 won't be tanking, and as a paying fan (long time season ticket holder) my view is that they (players) better not be tanking it or I'll quit going. I've waited two years for the youth movement, and now, damn it, I want to see it for better or worse.

(BTW I don't think anyone besides you thinks that the floor this year is 15 wins.)

 

[green]

So you think Hayward and Favors will be motivated to tank for the sake of the team tanking? Like they'll be in on the plan?

That's different than "checking out" because you're numb from all the losing or realizing you're not making the playoffs and taking care of injuries.

You want to tell us over and over that once March hits the players will be onboard for the tank, but their motivation will not be the tank. Players do not tank. I mean, if they were actively tanking they would do things like miss shots on purpose, throw the ball away, bail other players out by fouling them on missed/bad shots. So, since you're telling us all how dumb we are because we can't see it, do you think the players will actually tank by throwing games? If not I don't really know what you're arguing about.

Everyone has mistaken me somewhat slightly. I never said the Jazz would come to Hayward and say, "look, we suck. Let's sit you out the last 25 games so we can lose some more."

That is a big difference than Hayward sitting there in the middle of March and thinking, "Man, we suck. My ankle hurts. I'm going to take a couple games off to get better, or I'm only going to go at 75% tonight."

Huge difference. That is what I meant with my original post.

Then you toss in some chucking going on from Lucas, Burks, Jefferson, and a long, losing season can wear on a kid, and the Favors and Hayward could decide to check out a little early. That isn't a mark on their character or their future. It's nothing more than life is hard right now, I tried my hardest and we still suck, I'm going to get healthy and get ready for next year.

Now, my post you quoted was about money, and you changed the subject. Money won't be a motivating factor for Hayward and Favors come March. Their fate will have already been decided.

Never once did I say the Jazz would come to Hayward and Favors and ask them to lose or miss shots or anything like that.

 

[green]

I'm sure Burks and Hayward are chomping at the bit to lose games so Andrew Wiggins can take their minutes.

Hayward won't lose minutes to Wiggins and Burks can't hold Hayward or Wiggins' jock.

Also, I've included Burks in the group of people still fighting at the end of the year.

#postirrelevant

 

[green]

How about because you don't want the franchise to decide that you are the guy that needs replacing? And your position is the problem that needs solved. Thereby causing them to draft at your position giving you more competition for the spot you play and the money you can make in the future.

So, if the Jazz suck come March, and Favors has averaged 15 and 8, and Hayward has averaged 18 and 5, the Jazz will look to replace them?

Nope.

 

[green]

First, your comment seems condescending. Maybe that wasn't the tone you were going for, so perhaps you could clarify.

Second, I think your analysis is a bit simplistic, let's break it down

Scenario #1: young guns compete hard for 82 games and develop, getting real, in-game experience and developing as they go

Sencario #2: young guns compete hard for 57 games and develop, getting real, in-game experience and developing as they go. Then they tank for the last 25 (whether that is fewer minutes, out for games, or not competing hard).

Your hypothesis is that Hayward, Burke, Burks, Kanter, Favors wind up at the exact same place in their career arc in either scenario. I guess this could be true, but why risk stifling their development? Isn't their development the bottom line for the year?

I never said career arc.

I said come March, Hayward and Favors (they are the only ones who have expiring deals who the Jazz would definitely want back), will already have their futures decided. They will know what their next contract will be. Their biggest goal will be to not get hurt at that point.

Also, if you are going to sit out 20 games because you are banged up and your team sucks, wouldn't that theoretically extend your future by 20 games, and your future 20 games have a better chance to be more significant than the last 20 games on a crappy team?

If we are going career arc, and setting yourself up for your best possible future, the Hayward and Favors would be best served to completely sit out the last 1/4 of the season. They will know their future contracts, and they know their team sucks. Why play when the only thing that can happen good is you get hurt?

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

I never said career arc.

I said come March, Hayward and Favors (they are the only ones who have expiring deals who the Jazz would definitely want back), will already have their futures decided. They will know what their next contract will be. Their biggest goal will be to not get hurt at that point.

Also, if you are going to sit out 20 games because you are banged up and your team sucks, wouldn't that theoretically extend your future by 20 games, and your future 20 games have a better chance to be more significant than the last 20 games on a crappy team?

If we are going career arc, and setting yourself up for your best possible future, the Hayward and Favors would be best served to completely sit out the last 1/4 of the season. They will know their future contracts, and they know their team sucks. Why play when the only thing that can happen good is you get hurt?

I think the only way this thread ends is if/when we all give the answer green's looking for.

 

[silesian]

Green's argument

Mr Green, Your argument is weakened when you make such absolute and categorical statements. Throw in some nuance and maybe we could agree on a thing or two.

Mr Green: "Why play when the only thing that can happen good is you get hurt?"
Reply: Because maybe other things could happen, like you develop or polish a move, better understand what it takes to compete for a full season, grasp the toughness it takes to fight through injuries, learn more about the game...... etc, etc, these are all things NBA players have a hard time learning on the bench, and all things they need to do to compete for a championship down the road.

Mr Green: "What happens the last 25 games of the season has ZERO bearing on what type of career Hayward/Favors will have."
Mr Green: "I never said career arc."
Reply: I guess I thought that career arc is the path you take to improve a career. Does it mean something else to you? You seem to equate it with salary only (which, I agree, is one element of a career), while I was referring more to court performance and skills development.


"...Hayward and Favors would be best served to completely sit out the last 1/4 of the season...."

Maybe, maybe not. Why not sit out the first 25 games of the season? Same result, Jazz lose more games and players play 57 games (just a different 57 games). (Sorry, I am being facetious to make a point)

 

[Gameface]

Sit out 20 games and extend your career by 20 games?

This one takes the cake. I guess as Hayward's final full season comes to an end and he's facing questions about retirement he'll say, "Well, remember back in 2013-14 when I sat out at the end of the season with an "injury"? Well, good news! I've still got 20 games left in these legs so I'll be back for the first 20 games of the season next year...but then I'll be all worn out having played all the games my body is good for."

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Favors & Hayward are trying to become All Stars and make Team USA next summer. Everyone is playing for respect and a bigger contract down the road.


Maybe even Marvin Williams.

 

[Revolution 9]

They will compete, but not be able to win a lot of games.

What I'm looking for is:

1. That will to fight, and stay in a lot of games.
2. Win a few games they have no business winning
3. Showing improvement/development throughout the year

Losing can drag a team down, but if we see them doing the 3 things I mentioned above the season will
end on a very positive note.

 

[Stoked]

So, if the Jazz suck come March, and Favors has averaged 15 and 8, and Hayward has averaged 18 and 5, the Jazz will look to replace them?

Nope.

Wondering if they will fold when it gets tough could affect the FO s thought process.

 

[gregbroncs]

So, if the Jazz suck come March, and Favors has averaged 15 and 8, and Hayward has averaged 18 and 5, the Jazz will look to replace them?

Nope.

Why not? The whole point of this season is give the kids the reigns and see what they have. If they show that they can't carry the team you don't seem to think that will effect the amount of money they are offered in the off season. If they give up and their #'s fall then they absolutely could lose money. Not only that but they might start looking replaceable.

 

[Stifle Tower]

I disagree with you a bit green.

1. Careers aren't extended by games, they're calculated in years. Sitting out 20 this year doesn't mean they'd extend their career for the first 20 games of their last season and then not play the remaining 62.

2. If a player "quits" in March, that definitely would hurt their value. Most players are dinged up as the season progresses. Now there's a difference between minor and major injuries. Certainly if they're truly hurt, you sit them. If they have a sprained ankle, they should come back and play. Otherwise teams flag their durability.

3. Progression. Doesn't it stand to reason these guys should continue to get better as the season goes along? The last quarter of the season SHOULD be better than the first 20 games. Hayward has certainly followed that pattern.

4. The value for Favors and Hayward is NOT set in March. It's set in July when one or more teams (other than the Jazz) start talking offer sheet. And the BEST way to establish value is to go out and DOMINATE those teams you face. Last 20 games is the final chance to "submit your resume" to the 15-18 different teams you play during that stretch. Teams like Dallas, LA Lakers, Orlando, Detroit, New Orleans: Jazz face all those teams over the last 20 games and all could have an interest in signing either, especially if one had a real "statement" game against them.

 

[zbone]

The whole discussion is moot because comes March we will have 25 wins.

 

[[size/HUGE] fixed [/size]]

I'm just saying.... come March and... then when March comes, and... I'm just saying.....

 

[TroutBum]

I'm just saying.... come March and... then when March comes, and... I'm just saying.....

Great post, tool.

Green, I really do hate you; I never should have given you positive rep that one time. I have an idea! Let's do the exact same thing that ALL of us were bitching at GSW for doing last season. Brilliant!

Now I remember why I never read/post in this forum.

 

[Stoked]

Great post, tool.

Green, I really do hate you; I never should have given you positive rep that one time. I have an idea! Let's do the exact same thing that ALL of us were bitching at GSW for doing last season. Brilliant!

Now I remember why I never read/post in this forum.

lol. He scares you away? Lol

 

[Dr. Jones]

Great post, tool.

Green, I really do hate you; I never should have given you positive rep that one time. I have an idea! Let's do the exact same thing that ALL of us were bitching at GSW for doing last season. Brilliant!

Now I remember why I never read/post in this forum.

Well, that and you don't no dick about basketball.

 

[TroutBum]

lol. He scares you away? Lol

Yes. I'm so ashamed.

Or it might be that "fans" are actually starting threads about and hoping that our team tanks.

 

[UGLI baby]

Will someone please escort Mr. Wells back to General Discussion?