LDS general conference - Fall 2013

[Stoked]

I think a lot of mormons have this attitude. It is by far the number one thing that bugs secular people about the LDS church.

From my first hand experience that is much more a Utah Mormon attitude than a Mormon attitude. I say this from having lived in north and south Utah, Denver, Seattle, Memphis and Honduras. Being active and inactive. Mormons out side Utah and especially in Honduras seem to be very humble abou their faith.

 

[colton]

I thought he was referring to the fact that blacks couldn't hold the priesthood. Wasn't he specifically talking about African converts? If you had a physical trait that was beyond your control and discovered that an organization that was trying to recruit you was set up to permanently ban you from full membership because of that trait, would you join? I think it's fairly easy to argue that you lack either knowledge of the situation or the sophistication to understand the situation if you did. Of course, this argument could also be applied to women.

For what it's worth, I baptized about 9 black individuals while I was a missionary, about 7 from Africa, and one African-American couple. I thought exactly the same thing you are stating there, and I felt it was only fair for them to know at least some history of the priesthood ban. So I told them about how the church prohibited blacks from having the priesthood until 1978. I was somewhat surprised that it made absolutely no difference, for all of them. Every single person had the attitude that bygones were bygones, and they wouldn't dwell on what the policy had been in the past. Of course if the ban had still been in effect, that may well have affected their attitudes but as it was, it didn't.

 

[7StraightIsGreat]

The blacks/priesthood issue still bugs me and I'm always suprised when I see a black mormon. Yes, the ban was lifted in the 70's, but IMO the church rises or falls on the shoulders of Brigham Young and some of the completely insane things this guy believed. He is the #1 reason I've never been candidate to convert. Modern day Mormons brush off most of Young's quotes/antics with the "It was a very different time back then and we've moved past that" argument but I've never seen that as suitable reasoning.

If Brigham were brought back to life today, he'd probably be appauled by all of the progress the church has made because it would go against almost everything that he taught. For the record, I think Mormons today have done an excellent job with the modern day issues of equality. Removing the priesthood ban in 70's was the right thing to do and it even seems like they're inching towards similiar reconciliations with their homosexual members. However, it doesn't undo what was taught by a man who was supposed to the voice of God.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

For what it's worth, I baptized about 9 black individuals while I was a missionary, about 7 from Africa, and one African-American couple. I thought exactly the same thing you are stating there, and I felt it was only fair for them to know at least some history of the priesthood ban. So I told them about how the church prohibited blacks from having the priesthood until 1978. I was somewhat surprised that it made absolutely no difference, for all of them. Every single person had the attitude that bygones were bygones, and they wouldn't dwell on what the policy had been in the past. Of course if the ban had still been in effect, that may well have affected their attitudes but as it was, it didn't.

Did you ever baptize a woman? Did you have a similar discussion with them... except, of course, for the part about the policy having been changed.

 

[UGLI baby]

The blacks/priesthood issue still bugs me and I'm always suprised when I see a black mormon. Yes, the ban was lifted in the 70's, but IMO the church rises or falls on the shoulders of Brigham Young and some of the completely insane things this guy believed. He is the #1 reason I've never been candidate to convert. Modern day Mormons brush off most of Young's quotes/antics with the "It was a very different time back then and we've moved past that" argument but I've never seen that as suitable reasoning.

If Brigham were brought back to life today, he'd probably be appauled by all of the progress the church has made because it would go against almost everything that he taught. For the record, I think Mormons today have done an excellent job with the modern day issues of equality. Removing the priesthood ban in 70's was the right thing to do and it even seems like they're inching towards similiar reconciliations with their homosexual members. However, it doesn't undo what was taught by a man who was supposed to the voice of God.

What are some of the crazy things Brigham did/said?

(honest question, I know next to nothing about mormons)


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[Bronco70]

Modern day Mormons brush off most of Young's quotes/antics with the "It was a very different time back then and we've moved past that" argument but I've never seen that as suitable reasoning.

This is a pretty broad generalization and doesn't apply to me or a lot of other mormons I know. Personally, I assume that BY was pretty much a racist. Truth be told, he had a lot of character flaws (especially by today's standards). I think many issues stem from the assumption that, if he's God's mouthpiece, he will always say and do the right thing. I don't agree with this. It's contradictory to the concept of agency. I think BY was the prez during that time for other reasons - more pragmatic, logistical reasons that had to do with getting the saints to Utah. And I am certain that plenty of policy is (and has been) formulated, in the church, without a direct green light from God. But that's purely me speculating.

Know that I am not arguing with you, merely sharing my perspective, as a mormon, on this question.

...I'm always suprised when I see a black mormon.

On paper, it may appear unreasonable for blacks to overlook the past, but I think that when someone finds something that makes a positive difference in their life, they are willing to excuse the imperfections.

 

[Stoked]

Did you ever baptize a woman? Did you have a similar discussion with them... except, of course, for the part about the policy having been changed.

I baptized several women. They all knew what the priesthood was, what it did and who could hold it and who could not. They still wished to be baptized.

 

[spycam1]

What are some of the crazy things Brigham did/said?

(honest question, I know next to nothing about mormons)


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-Racist comments like:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110).


-Weird things he taught as doctrine such as Blood Atonement (it basically means there are certain sins that are large enough that Christ's blood can't pay for them, and you have to pay for it...with your own blood).

"There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it . . . " (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 247; see also, vol. 4, p. 53-54, 219-220).


Those are probably the most famous of BY's whaky statements.

 

[Gameface]

What are some of the crazy things Brigham did/said?

Well, he always used to drive up to Evanston and buy illegal fireworks for the 4th of July. One year he put a whole gross (that's 144) of bottle rockets in a coffee can and lit them all at once. Haha, it was crazy.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

I baptized several women. They all knew what the priesthood was, what it did and who could hold it and who could not. They still wished to be baptized.

Does it surprise you at all, thinking back, that they wanted to be baptized knowing that they were joining an organization where they would never earn full rights? Would you join an organization that cast you as secondary to a woman? I am not trying to be contentious. I'm simply asking a question that hadn't really occurred to me before. It seems like this would become a major obstacle to missionary work in the modern world.

In my childhood I could imagine a God that saw men and women differently in these sorts of ways. Now, not so much.

 

[UGLI baby]

-Racist comments like:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110).


-Weird things he taught as doctrine such as Blood Atonement (it basically means there are certain sins that are large enough that Christ's blood can't pay for them, and you have to pay for it...with your own blood).

"There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it . . . " (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 247; see also, vol. 4, p. 53-54, 219-220).


Those are probably the most famous BY's whaky statements.

Ive always been confused about Mormons beliefs about Jesus and the Cross. What do Mormons believe?


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[Stoked]

Does it surprise you at all, thinking back, that they wanted to be baptized knowing that they were joining an organization where they would never earn full rights? Would you join an organization that cast you as secondary to a woman? I am not trying to be contentious. I'm simply asking a question that hadn't really occurred to me before. It seems like this would become a major obstacle to missionary work in the modern world.

In my childhood I could imagine a God that saw men and women differently in these sorts of ways. Now, not so much.

No and here is why. I feel that women are men's equal. Now that does not mean the same. For example: in my mission field there were female missionaries. Some male missionaries did not feel they should be there and were a waste of time and resources. I did not. They could reach people and do things that I could not and vice versa.

If you want to consider women not holding the priesthood means they are second class citizens than fine. But I do not. So I disagree with the premise of the arguement.

Edit: I am sure that some people do feel that way and that is fine. But others do not. So the base arguement is not an absolute.