Racism and privilege

[8]

Question for all:

The word 'niggard' - Is it racist?

 

[One Brow]

This is pure postulation on your behalf-- in fact, I have read literature that proposes the opposite. Do you have any justification behind a claim like this?

You mean, besides past conversations with GameFace, Stoked, etc.? Perhaps my meaning was unclear.

I think I can count on one hand the number of white men in this forum who have acknowledged that, were they black or a woman, they would probably not have succeeded to the same degree; who talk about how they got this award over a more deserving black colleague or was praised more in class than a female student of similar capability. It goes against the assumption we seem to hold for a just world.

Can you link me to any of the literature you have that indicates the opposite, that most people acknowledge they have personally benefited, and still benefit, from their privilege, without having that metaphorically shoved in their face?

How were their "eyes opened"? Was it through condescending, accusational "you're wrong I'm right" conversations? Or was it through a softer, more intellectual approach?

https://freethoughtblogs.com/entequ...the-path-of-the-privileged-paternalistic-***/

I also realized that if she hadn’t hit me with a hammer, that privileged shell of mine wouldn’t have cracked. And that has been true of every other minority or disadvantaged person who’s hit me with hammers of their own. Their passion and anger broke through the comfortable fog of Being Right Because I Am White Cis Hetero Middle Class.

I can link you to many more.

I have spent years debunking myths about certain tenets of myself-- my faith particularly. Even here on Jazzfanz. From personal observation, having a soft, mutually-respectful conversation tends to be the most eye-opening for the recipient.

As I said, I think different topics merit different approaches. I accept that you disapprove of my choice of approach on this topic.

 

[Stoked]

Question for all:

The word 'niggard' - Is it racist?

From you, yes.

 

[Stoked]

You mean, besides past conversations with GameFace, Stoked, etc.? Perhaps my meaning was unclear.

I think I can count on one hand the number of white men in this forum who have acknowledged that, were they black or a woman, they would probably not have succeeded to the same degree; who talk about how they got this award over a more deserving black colleague or was praised more in class than a female student of similar capability. It goes against the assumption we seem to hold for a just world.

Can you link me to any of the literature you have that indicates the opposite, that most people acknowledge they have personally benefited, and still benefit, from their privilege, without having that metaphorically shoved in their face?



https://freethoughtblogs.com/entequ...the-path-of-the-privileged-paternalistic-***/



I can link you to many more.



As I said, I think different topics merit different approaches. I accept that you disapprove of my choice of approach on this topic.

Oh you mean the conversations that pretty much prove Dalamons point?

 

[One Brow]

Question for all:

The word 'niggard' - Is it racist?

When spoken aloud, it's a near-homophone to a word that has a very racist context in many situations. So, while I have no objection to the word "niggard", I'd probably just go with "cheap" or "miserly" out of politeness.

 

[One Brow]

Oh you mean the conversations that pretty much prove Dalamons point?

Oddly, a few years ago when I spoke more mildly on these topics, no one ever asked me what I thought they should do. It stayed at the nice, safe, academic level. At least now, people ask. So, I'm curious why you think those past conversations proved dalamon's point?

 

[Deleted member 848]

You mean, besides past conversations with GameFace, Stoked, etc.?

Nope. I meant scientific literature. Do you have published scientific justification behind your claims?

Perhaps my meaning was unclear.

I think I can count on one hand the number of white men in this forum who have acknowledged that, were they black or a woman, they would probably not have succeeded to the same degree; who talk about how they got this award over a more deserving black colleague or was praised more in class than a female student of similar capability. It goes against the assumption we seem to hold for a just world.

Can you link me to any of the literature you have that indicates the opposite, that most people acknowledge they have personally benefited, and still benefit, from their privilege, without having that metaphorically shoved in their face?

This wasn't what I was addressing. If you recall, I highlighted a point in response to your post that specifically claimed:

No one likes to think they had the easy road; they remember their struggles, but don't see how much more difficult their struggles could have been.

It was this, that I wanted to see justification behind.

https://freethoughtblogs.com/entequ...the-path-of-the-privileged-paternalistic-***/

This isn't scientific literature. For every blog-post denouncing the issue presented in this blog, I can find its complement at some right-wing web-log.

I can link you to many more.

even if you did, it wouldn't strengthen your claims.

As I said, I think different topics merit different approaches. I accept that you disapprove of my choice of approach on this topic.

And I respect that. Again, I truly did not try to be malicious, or condescending-- I'm simply trying to highlight an alternative approach to how you might approach getting your voice out there for particularly-serious issues-- and I speak with experience, as the approach I have used has tended to be quite successful.

 

[One Brow]

It was this, that I wanted to see justification behind.

Just to be clear, you're looking for scientific literature that indicates people don't like to admit they have benefited from unfair advantages. So, we are talking about some sort of psychology experiments, probably. Do I have that right?

This isn't scientific literature. For every blog-post denouncing the issue presented in this blog, I can find its complement at some right-wing web-log.

You can find a right-wing blog where the writer says they were blind and privileged, and have since had their eyes opened? Id be very interested in reading such an entry. If that's not what you meant, I'm not sure what you do mean.

even if you did, it wouldn't strengthen your claims.

I agree that anecdotes are not data. I'm not sure you can do experiments on what would be the most effective means of demonstrating a person's privilege to that person, though. What type of evidence are you looking for? How would you set up a study on that?

And I respect that. Again, I truly did not try to be malicious, or condescending-- I'm simply trying to highlight an alternative approach to how you might approach getting your voice out there for particularly-serious issues-- and I speak with experience, as the approach I have used has tended to be quite successful.

What was your goal, and how do you know you were successful?

 

[Deleted member 848]

Just to be clear, you're looking for scientific literature that indicates people don't like to admit they have benefited from unfair advantages. So, we are talking about some sort of psychology experiments, probably. Do I have that right?

Im looking for scientific justification for this statement that you made: "No one likes to think they had the easy road; they remember their struggles, but don't see how much more difficult their struggles could have been."

You can find a right-wing blog where the writer says they were blind and privileged, and have since had their eyes opened? Id be very interested in reading such an entry. If that's not what you meant, I'm not sure what you do mean.

Nope, that wasn't my point-- simply pointing out that anecdotes aren't data.

I agree that anecdotes are not data.

Glad we're on the same page

I'm not sure you can do experiments on what would be the most effective means of demonstrating a person's privilege to that person, though. What type of evidence are you looking for? How would you set up a study on that?

This isn't what I was looking for. Please re-read my posts.

What was your goal, and how do you know you were successful?

Well to summarize loosely: I encountered various individuals with huge misconceptions about a given topic-- misconceptions so incorrect, that the prevalence of these opinions could have drastic negative impacts on certain tenets of society.

Sometimes, me and the given individual "[coming now, and reasoning together]" led to the individual to changing his/her opinion; at times, having their "eyes-opened" had such profound impacts that some people have even joined active groups that aid and dispelling some of the misconceptions that they used to share.

 

[8]

When spoken aloud, it's a near-homophone to a word that has a very racist context in many situations. So, while I have no objection to the word "niggard", I'd probably just go with "cheap" or "miserly" out of politeness.

Appreciate the response

I encountered that word earlier.

I do not know the history of the word, but it's unfortunate that something as trivial as race can lead to the extinction of an otherwise unique, English word

 

[Stoked]

Oddly, a few years ago when I spoke more mildly on these topics, no one ever asked me what I thought they should do. It stayed at the nice, safe, academic level. At least now, people ask. So, I'm curious why you think those past conversations proved dalamon's point?

And you have refused to answer. So really what has been accomplished? Nothing. If anything you have hardened stances against yours.

 

[One Brow]

Im looking for scientific justification for this statement that you made: "No one likes to think they had the easy road; they remember their struggles, but don't see how much more difficult their struggles could have been."

You're looking for scientific literature that has an absolute attached? I acknowledge I will never find such a thing.

More generally, since I've acknowledged before that my life has been made much easier by dint of my being male, straight, cis, able, and slightly taller than average (I could list another half-dozen privileges), I'm not sure any reasonable person could take "No one" as being literal instead of exaggeration (although even then, I don't "like" admitting it, but rather feel it's necessary to preserve honesty on the subject).

Now, if you're looking for studies that show when participants have an advantage over other participants, they will tend not to notice that advantage and focus more on what they themselves did to win, I believe those can be found.

Nope, that wasn't my point-- simply pointing out that anecdotes aren't data.

I agree there. I don't see how data would be accumulated, though. At least anecdote shows what's possible.

This isn't what I was looking for. Please re-read my posts.

Is there any way to interpret that as not indicating that my reading effort is insincere or lacking?

Well to summarize loosely: I encountered various individuals with huge misconceptions about a given topic-- misconceptions so incorrect, that the prevalence of these opinions could have drastic negative impacts on certain tenets of society.

Sometimes, me and the given individual "[coming now, and reasoning together]" led to the individual to changing his/her opinion; at times, having their "eyes-opened" had such profound impacts that some people have even joined active groups that aid and dispelling some of the misconceptions that they used to share.

I think you chose the right tactic for your issue (based on what I've read in here, I'm guessing religion). I'm not trying to get people to dispel misconceptions; I'm trying to get them to acknowledge that, as humans, they share in the human inability to make quick, accurate decisions.