interesting that you mention boogie here. i remember vs the kings, maybe the game in SAC... there were some subtle signifiers of toughness (or whatever) that made me think gordon is developing some of mongrel that jazz fans so desperately want to see from him. not sure if it was mentioned in the game-thread, but there was a moment after a whistle where cousins tried to swipe the ball away from him and he firmly pulled it away and confidently pushed past him. i feel like if those west/barea moments happened now gordon's response wouldn't be as passive. he's got a steely look in his eye these days.
If one of our players became a star?
- Thread starter Doublea
- Start date
interesting that you mention boogie here. i remember vs the kings, maybe the game in SAC... there were some subtle signifiers of toughness (or whatever) that made me think gordon is developing some of mongrel that jazz fans so desperately want to see from him. not sure if it was mentioned in the game-thread, but there was a moment after a whistle where cousins tried to swipe the ball away from him and he firmly pulled it away and confidently pushed past him. i feel like if those west/barea moments happened now gordon's response wouldn't be as passive. he's got a steely look in his eye these days.
Doublea
Well-Known Member
We need steady headed players on our team. I think you are right though. Hayward is definitely interesting to watch this year. It seems like he has been very inconsistent, but in a way he's doing a lot better then I though. We all say too that his numbers will jump up during the second part of the season so it seems like this will get better then George's.
Primetime
Active Member
Part I
Once again I don't think Hayward is as good as George and he may never be but the stats both had in their first 37 games looked mostly similar to me. So I looked up the clutch stats as well and also got the shotcharts. So let's take a look.
First of the clutch statistics.
Last 5 MIN <= 5 PTS:
Advanced:
Gordon has a higher USG%, he is not turning the ball over as much as George, he is more efficient and has a higher AST%. The only area in Georges favour is his rebounding.
Advantage: Hayward
Last 3 MIN <= 5 PTS:
Advanced:
Gordons USG% goes up in the last 3 minutes, he is less efficient (still way better than George), he is losing the ball more(still fewer than George), his AST% goes down a bit(better than George) and while Georges rebounding is improving Gordon is not rebounding as much as before.
Advantage: Hayward
Last 1 MIN <= 5 PTS:
Advanced:
The last minute of a game is Gordon time. He nearly doubled Georges USG%, is turning over the ball too much but also has a really high AST%. I don't like that eFG% especially in comparison to the league but in contrast to George he is solid.
Advantage: Hayward
Last 5 MIN | +/- 5 PTS:
Advanced:
Same old, same old. Gordon the better playmaker, George the better rebounder but he is losing the ball more than Gordon. Similar USG% and eFG%.
Advantage: Hayward
Last 3 MIN | +/- 5 PTS:
Advanced:
The first time that George has a higher USG%! Still Gordon has the better all around stats.
Advantage: Hayward
To be continued...
Once again I don't think Hayward is as good as George and he may never be but the stats both had in their first 37 games looked mostly similar to me. So I looked up the clutch stats as well and also got the shotcharts. So let's take a look.
First of the clutch statistics.
Last 5 MIN <= 5 PTS:
Advanced:
Advantage: Hayward
Last 3 MIN <= 5 PTS:
Advanced:
Advantage: Hayward
Last 1 MIN <= 5 PTS:
Advanced:
Advantage: Hayward
Last 5 MIN | +/- 5 PTS:
Advanced:
Advantage: Hayward
Last 3 MIN | +/- 5 PTS:
Advanced:
Advantage: Hayward
To be continued...
Primetime
Active Member
part II
Last 1 MIN | +/- 5 PTS:
Advanced:
Again, Gordons numerbs are nowhere near perfect but at least he shows up.
I think the clutch stats are a strong positive in Gordons favour and it's actualy not even close. If you want a distributor or a scorer you take Gordon if you need a stop on the other court, now thats an whole other story. But unfortunately there are not many defensive numbers do compare especially clutch stats. The only ones I know of are the DRtg from b-r.com and from mysynergysports.
basketball-reference.com:
There really wasn't any doubt about the defensive part and despite his lesser ORtg George was not a negative impact like Gordon unfortunately is this year.
https://mysynergysports.com/:
Here are some more defensive stats but these are both from this year. I guess synergysports don't publish past years?!?!
And here are their shotcharts.
George is below the league average(red) in 5 areas, comparable to the league average(yellow) in 5 areas and above league average(green) in 4 areas. Gordon is below the league average(red) in 5 areas, comparable to the league average(yellow) in 6 areas and above league average(green) in 3 areas. Gordon is better inside the arc and George has the advantage behind the arc. The corner three areas are really looking bad for Gordon, it is the easiest three point shot so it has to be average at least.
Again I wouldn't say he will ever be a George type player but Gordon has talent and the Jazz roster has a lots of potential but there is one puzzle piece missing. You get that piece in the draft, keep Gordon and get 1-2 veterans ant you're ready to roll...
Last 1 MIN | +/- 5 PTS:
Advanced:
I think the clutch stats are a strong positive in Gordons favour and it's actualy not even close. If you want a distributor or a scorer you take Gordon if you need a stop on the other court, now thats an whole other story. But unfortunately there are not many defensive numbers do compare especially clutch stats. The only ones I know of are the DRtg from b-r.com and from mysynergysports.
basketball-reference.com:
[table="width: 500, class: grid, align: left"]
[tr]
[td]Name[/td]
[td]Season[/td]
[td]ORtg[/td]
[td]DRtg[/td]
[td]NetRtg[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Gordon Hayward[/td]
[td]2013/2014[/td]
[td]104[/td]
[td]109[/td]
[td]-5[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Paul George[/td]
[td]2012/2013[/td]
[td]100[/td]
[td]96[/td]
[td]+4[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
[tr]
[td]Name[/td]
[td]Season[/td]
[td]ORtg[/td]
[td]DRtg[/td]
[td]NetRtg[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Gordon Hayward[/td]
[td]2013/2014[/td]
[td]104[/td]
[td]109[/td]
[td]-5[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Paul George[/td]
[td]2012/2013[/td]
[td]100[/td]
[td]96[/td]
[td]+4[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
https://mysynergysports.com/:
[table="width: 500, class: grid, align: left"]
[tr]
[td][/td]
[td]Hayward(ppp)[/td]
[td]George(ppp)[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Overall[/td]
[td]0,94[/td]
[td]0,78[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Iso[/td]
[td]1,08[/td]
[td]0,7[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]P&R Ball Handler[/td]
[td]0,85[/td]
[td]0,6[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Post-Up[/td]
[td]1,56[/td]
[td]0,77[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]P&R Roll man[/td]
[td]0,5[/td]
[td]0,73[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Spot-Up[/td]
[td]1,1[/td]
[td]0,88[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Off Screen[/td]
[td]0,7[/td]
[td]0,92[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Hand Off[/td]
[td]0,5[/td]
[td]1,13[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
[tr]
[td][/td]
[td]Hayward(ppp)[/td]
[td]George(ppp)[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Overall[/td]
[td]0,94[/td]
[td]0,78[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Iso[/td]
[td]1,08[/td]
[td]0,7[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]P&R Ball Handler[/td]
[td]0,85[/td]
[td]0,6[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Post-Up[/td]
[td]1,56[/td]
[td]0,77[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]P&R Roll man[/td]
[td]0,5[/td]
[td]0,73[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Spot-Up[/td]
[td]1,1[/td]
[td]0,88[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Off Screen[/td]
[td]0,7[/td]
[td]0,92[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Hand Off[/td]
[td]0,5[/td]
[td]1,13[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
And here are their shotcharts.
Paul George:
Gordon Hayward:
Gordon Hayward:
Again I wouldn't say he will ever be a George type player but Gordon has talent and the Jazz roster has a lots of potential but there is one puzzle piece missing. You get that piece in the draft, keep Gordon and get 1-2 veterans ant you're ready to roll...
D
Deleted member 848
Guest
Paul George is simply not a superstar, and you cannot run a top-15 offense over the course of a season specifically through him. Maybe he'll grow and prove me wrong, but I highly have my doubts. IMO, Gordon is more offensively capable. George definitely has the edge on defense (and rebounding), but Hayward is the better passer, and transition player. Both good players.
D
Deleted member 848
Guest
Frank Vogel is a top 3 coach in this league, IMO. What he has gotten out of West, Hibbert, George, Hill, and Stephenson is remarkable-- particularly in contrast to his predecessor at Indiana.
fishonjazz
Well-Known Member
Contributor
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I think the answer is yes to both questions but just a little bit under and over rated
ijazz
Well-Known Member
The comparison is fair.
PG's 1st year being #1 last year was all over the map. (like this year for G)
PG this year is crazy good. Though in a big slump now. (Will Hayward do this next year is the Q?)
Don't know.
I still stand by Hayward worth 10/11 per year.
Someone will offer 13. If Jazz will not match, trade him now. If you will match, no biggie, play on.
Just a business
Doublea
Well-Known Member
I don't think the Jazz will trade him, mostly because they want to see how well he does through this year before matching offers.
Coach Ellis
Well-Known Member
Agreed. I think they let the market set his price with the plan to match it regardless. Don't think the franchise is as low on him as fans are. . . despite his struggles. They tried to get him cheaper by extending him and it didn't work. They still hold all the cards and will probably play it out. I think he probably gets about what they're willing to pay him on the open market.