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Iraq Is Cracking Apart

babe said:
I'm pretty sure the government of Hussein was responsible for tens of thousands of deaths of tens of thousands. Maybe counting the war with Iran, ten times that. But we were responsible for him being the honcho there in the first place. We simply don't have any way to know how many people would die unjustly if we just stayed home and reduced our government to an non-issue. We do know that Russia, under Stalion, killed tens of millions. China under Mao killed more, Hitler and the Japanese militarist clique killed millions more.

I might not think we're doing things right, but I'm pretty sure that other nations, not having some of our "high ideals" would do worse.

I think we should change our principles, our foreign policy, away from cartel economics and actually promote human rights. . . that means, smaller governments worldwide with less booty to merchandise for our "favors". We should shame all the honchos with our media, and we should have military strength ten times what anyone else can afford.. .. .

Just sayin' . . . . .
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Blah blah blah. Some people just never can admit when they're wrong. Oh well, at least now you can revel in the fact that Iraq is in a better place than when we invaded, and the world is clearly a lot safer from the threat of terrorism.

Heil W.!
 
heyhey said:
Not really.

Germany without Nazi's is a nice place to live. Iraq without Saddam's Ba'athists is still a ****ed up **** hole.
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Apples and Oranges. 50 years after the first one ended. 5 years after WWII Germany was not such a great place, and the only reason some wacked out power hungry dickwad didn't try to fill the void was because we so effectively muzzled the entire region for decades to come. Where would they have been if we had just bailed out?
 
LogGrad98 said:
Apples and Oranges. 50 years after the first one ended. 5 years after WWII Germany was not such a great place, and the only reason some wacked out power hungry dickwad didn't try to fill the void was because we so effectively muzzled the entire region for decades to come. Where would they have been if we had just bailed out?
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Marshall Plan and industrialized country. That's quite the difference between Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan.

Rebuilding an industrialized country is a lot easier than rebuilding a country that was a ****hole and always has been a ****hole.

Germans wanted to get back to their factories and fantastic economy. In reality, a radical government in both Japan and Germany were blips on the radar. Errors of an era. Not the definitions of a country.

Not to mention they're a homogenous society (white & Christian). Something that helped the rebuild is that the Nazis had basically booted out or exterminated factions that would have caused the rebuild problems (socialists, intellectuals, different races and religions).

What do you do for Afghanistan? Replant opium fields? Why haven't they been fighting amongst themselves?

Iraq was never supposed to be a country in the first place. Just because the British Drew lines on the map doesn't mean the people living there will call themselves Iraqis. The oil they have is fought over by 3 different factions. The only way to rule that country is to rule with an iron fist. Democracy was never really a realistic option. Hell, just look at how our own democracy is struggling to survive even though your liberal New Yorker and tea party conservative from Bama has 100x more things in common than your typical Shiite/Sunni/Kurd.

When haven't there been disruptions between those two rivers?

Lastly, as cold as it sounds, don't underestimate what hitler did to destroy any political opposition. Had Saddam exterminated most of the Shiites and Kurds, our rebuild of Iraq would have been a lot easier. So comparing Iraq and Germany is really not fair. It's like comparing the Jacksonville Jags to the San Antonio Spurs.
 
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LogGrad98 said:
Apples and Oranges. 50 years after the first one ended. 5 years after WWII Germany was not such a great place, and the only reason some wacked out power hungry dickwad didn't try to fill the void was because we so effectively muzzled the entire region for decades to come. Where would they have been if we had just bailed out?
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Apples and oranges is right.

We only had to convince Germans to go back to being Germans and stop being Nazis. A simple equation defeat Hitler and defeat the Nazis. We had to convince Iraqis to become Iraqis. Defeat Saddam and try to build a community that was never there in the first place.

There were no institutions like there were in Germany. There is no Hirohito to have them accept us like there was in Japan. We could spend another 10 years in Iraq and it would have ended similarly, imo.

Two evil leaders do not make the situations comparable.
 
Like Vietnam, I have a feeling that we will all look back at this era and see how we overreacted to the terrorist threat.

Like Vietnam, things will figure things out in Iraq. Those people over there will sort it out. The best thing we could do is to stay out. Finally, let those over there figure it out.

Whatever happens happens. Further intervention is only postponing the inevitable and will only result in further American lives and dollars wasted.
 
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