The history white people need to learn

[NUMBERICA]

Or, alternatively, it will be largely about education level as well.

I tend to think that the strongest explanatory factor is class rather than race, although race and education probably correlated strongly with class and vice versa. It's a pretty tangled set of causal factors. But, you're right in that race is will certainly continue to be a large part of it.

Interestingly, those who are most apt to declare their white pride are, it seems, drawn disproportionately from the lower, less educated classes. My hypothesis is that their fixation about race and white pride has a lot to do with their desire to elevate themselves above the [N-word], in recognition of their own lowly status, so that they can be comforted by the thought that they are at least better than someone else.

I don't disagree with any of that.

 

[Stoked]

There is, and ought to be, social stigma attached to 'white pride,' for reasons I've explained.

Social stigma attached to socially undesirable acts is wholly appropriate.

That said, I'm not sure what you're point is.

There is but there shouldn't be. A few idiots should not define what is acceptable for society. But it is not those groups alone that are pushing the shame over being proud to be white.

No I am not advocating for white history month.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

Black pride clearly is about pride. Listen to the rhetoric. Terms like "the white man" are pervasive. Black pride is not addressing a set of higher humanist ideals that apply to all people. It is a singling out. A base urge akin to nationalism whereby people choose to embrace the pride of a constructed group.

I think you've grossly misrepresented the Black Pride 'movement.' I would suggest to you that it is a diverse movement with diverse messages, including humanistic ideals such as individual and group pride and rejection of shame, but also including baser emotions, such as deviance against perceived oppressors and messages of intolerance and hate. It's understandable for those who feel oppressed to have feelings of hate, or other strong negative emotions, toward their oppressors. Disappointing but understandable. You, however, have chosen to focus on that part of the movement that fits your preconceived narrative. That the Black Pride movement includes many, many reasonable, rational people with positive messages should be seen as a triumph of sorts, yet all you can see, it seems, is the negative. Why is that?

 

[Stoked]

I think you've grossly misrepresented the Black Pride 'movement.' I would suggest to you that it is a diverse movement with diverse messages, including humanistic ideals such as individual and group pride and rejection of shame, but also including baser emotions, such as deviance against perceived oppressors and messages of intolerance and hate. It's understandable for those who feel oppressed to have feelings of hate, or other strong negative emotions, toward their oppressors. Disappointing but understandable. You, however, have chosen to focus on that part of the movement that fits your preconceived narrative. That the Black Pride movement includes many, many reasonable, rational people with positive messages should be seen as a triumph of sorts, yet all you can see, it seems, is the negative. Why is that?

hmmm....interesting. Flip that around for me.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

There is but there shouldn't be. A few idiots should not define what is acceptable for society. But it is not those groups alone that are pushing the shame over being proud to be white.

No I am not advocating for white history month.

How do you celebrate your "white pride"?

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

There is but there shouldn't be. A few idiots should not define what is acceptable for society. But it is not those groups alone that are pushing the shame over being proud to be white.

No I am not advocating for white history month.

So just to make sure I understand, are you saying that their should be no social stigma for racist beliefs?

When is social stigma justifiable?

I would argue that social stigma (or shame) appropriately applied is one of the greatest forces for moving social progress forward.

I would add further that, as with most things, good things can become bad if taken to extremes, which is where we get political correctness. I hate PC as much as most people, only I'd draw the line at different places than some of you as to where legitimate social stigma/shaming crosses into unreasonable PC.

 

[Stoked]

So just to make sure I understand, are you saying that their should be no social stigma for racist beliefs?

When is social stigma justifiable?

I would argue that social stigma (or shame) appropriately applied is one of the greatest forces for moving social progress forward.

That's the problem, society feels that it absolutely has to equate white pride with racism.That they cannot be seperated. I reject that they are one and the same. I flat out reject that white pride has to be about racism. No matter how some groups, on both sides of the fence, wish to paint it so. I truly feel like you already knew I was saying this and are trying to spin.
I agree that there are social beliefs and opinions that should be rejected by society. Such as racist beliefs.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

That's the problem, society feels that it absolutely has to equate white pride with racism.That they cannot be seperated. I reject that they are one and the same. I flat out reject that white pride has to be about racism. No matter how some groups, on both sides of the fence, wish to paint it so. I truly feel like you already knew I was saying this and are trying to spin.
I agree that there are social beliefs and opinions that should be rejected by society. Such as racist beliefs.

And here, my good friend, is where we part ways. I, on the other hand, see white pride as inevitably intertwined with racism.

I'm not trying to spin your words, if you think so, I'm sorry. I'm just trying to understand what your position is. We're coming from different places here, so there's bound to be some groping back and forth to try to understand each other.

 

[Stoked]

And here, my good friend, is where we part ways. I, on the other hand, see white pride as inevitably intertwined with racism.

I'm not trying to spin your words, if you think so, I'm sorry. I'm just trying to understand what your position is. We're coming from different places here, so there's bound to be some groping back and forth to try to understand each other.

I will take you at your word that you are not spinning at all but asking for clirification. I hope I provided it.

On how we view white pride, and what it should mean, is indeed where we part ways. I view what racist white groups are doing as horribly damaging. Their usage of it and groups that incessanty cry racism over everything, are disgusting and taint our society. This very debate is an example of that.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

As an aside observation, I find it endlessly interesting how members of privileged/oppressor groups try to dictate the 'appropriate' behavior among the members of the under privileged/oppressed groups. In the process they fail to understand that trying to dictate what or how the less privileged/oppressed think, say or behave is just another manifestation of the oppression. We don't mind that blacks, for example, get a little perturbed about how social institutions systematically disadvantage them, but heaven forbid they go and get all uppity about it.

This very thing is now playing out in the debate on class equity. While the 1% and their political allies continuously engage in structuring the rules of the game to the benefit of the 1%, they turn around and try to dictate to the 99% how they should think, feel and act about it labeling any opposition to the 1%'s continuing accumulation of national wealth as class warfare or class envy and trying to shame the 99% for thinking or saying there just might be other, more equitable, ways to structure the rules of the game so that wealth does not become so concentrated in the hands of the very, very few.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Nothing more embarrassing than hearing fellow white people say "white pride".

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I love being white in the same way I love getting 21 in Blackjack. Wow, I got super lucky, this is awesome. I could have gotten 16 and really had to make a hard decision, but I just got super lucky and got more money than anyone else at the table while I did nothing extra to deserve it, yay me.