"Williams Brothers" remarks Racist?

[moevillini]

am I mistaken, or is the original controversy due to his calling them the Williams "brothers" - - and the "scary" aspect came into play when he tried to explain what he meant?


Yes, I'm white, so discount my opinions all you want, but I think this is a tempest in a teapot. I don't always cut people slack, but in this case - referring to them as "brothers" is sexist perhaps, but they are far more muscled than the average woman - and I don't think it has a whit to do with racism. Nor do I see how it's bullying. Plus the fact that I'm guessing that English is not his first language - - and the phrase that someone is "scary good" is pretty commonly used - - well, I think some folks are just looking to pick a fight.

Is "pick" racist? Because, ya know...

 

[moevillini]

Ok.

as they say on "Family Feud" - - good answer, good answer!!!

 

[[size/HUGE] boobs [/size]]

No, I am sure there is some racism, I am just not sure the same cultural memes reign among the population. The attacks are usually done by very small portion of the population(neo-nazis, skinhead groups, extreme right wing groups).

For example, I've been around some of the more radical groups in my country(football/soccer fans) and I can't remember hearing the "scary" meme ever mentioned. And outside of those groups, you practically never talk about black people ever! Whatever distrust there is, is more on the grounds of xenophobia(the otherness) than on grounds of negative stereotyping. I don't know if that makes sense...

This is correct and you see this in immigration numbers. Russia is number two in world so we cannot be racist or these peoples would not be allowed.

Racism is mainly against non-Russian Caucasians and against the stans nations because they are seen as vile, backwoods peoples. Blaming Russians for fascism against them is like blaming your grandparents for hating Vietnamese and Koreans after years war. Pretty self righteous stand to make.

 

[stitches]

This is correct and you see this in immigration numbers. Russia is number two in world so we cannot be racist or these peoples would not be allowed.

Racism is mainly against non-Russian Caucasians and against the stans nations because they are seen as vile, backwoods peoples. Blaming Russians for fascism against them is like blaming your grandparents for hating Vietnamese and Koreans after years war. Pretty self righteous stand to make.

That's very possible. For example, I'd say in Bulgaria(my country of origin) there are wide-spread racistic views and negative stereotypes, but they are mainly against significantly large minority groups within the country - mainly the gipsy/Romani population. For negative stereotypes to arise and become wide-spread and homogenized among the population, large enough portion of the population must encounter the stereotyped/vilified/stigmatized group on a regular/daily basis. In other words, if you want a meme to spread, you need a vehicle for spreading it... in the case of negative stereotypes, it is talking to your peers about people/situations you encounter every day or almost every day, otherwise it simply doesn't enter into conversation enough for those memes to get rooted in the minds of the population.

 

[One Brow]

I meant specifically experience within their own population, as I stated.

Your prior post did not contain "their own", but I accept that this is what you intended. Certainly, the largest ethnic groups in Russia would be considered white here in the US (I'm not sure that, for example, the Turkic groups are considered white in Russia; we've had a couple of Russians in this forum say bigoted things about players like Kanter).

The these opinions are based on contact with populations largely external doesn't seem to have hindered their virulence or negativity, so I am curious why you feel this ameliorates the level of racism in Russian culture.

What I mean is that the regular Russian people don't usually come across people of those races(40K black people in a country of 150 million is hardly significant) on a daily basis and aren't conditioned enough for such cultural memes to really exist in the way they do in a country like the US where significant portion of the population is Asian or black or Hispanic.

In 1814, perhaps, you could say that cultural memes were primarily transmitted by personal contact. In 2014, mass media does the job nicely. Conditioning can happen fairly rapidly, in as few as three or four exposures, if there is no counter-messaging.

I've lived almost all my life in a country with very similar cultural make up and very similar % of black people in the population. I can tell you that among the regular people such memes simply don't exist

Well, the lack of such memes would rule out any country where English is spoken natively, so I want to first congratulate you your excellent command of the language. Unless you're from a place like Canada, and are under the impression that, say, black people in Canada don't experience the sort of racism that black people in the US experience (a least one black Canadian I read says otherwise).

However, since I don't know which country you mean, I can't really argue such a point.

 

[One Brow]

Ok.

Also, it would really be the opposite of what I meant.

 

[gregbroncs]

Only? Possibly, but probably not. Very few things said or done have a single cause or influence.



Maybe someone will find a quote or two supporting this notion.



I've been asking for quotes from anyone, not just Tarpishchev, because I'm referring to a cultural construct, not a person. If you like, I can offer other quotes about black people being scary even when there is no threat of violence.

As was said before you are leveling the charges of racism against a statement any sane person does not see it in. Therefore the burden of proof is on you the accuser not on the people calling out your BS. All you have done in this thread is throw out unsupported accusations based on some mythical cultural phenomenon. Providing quotes about random black people being scary does nothing to help your cause. There are any # of people that get called scary for any # of reasons. You need proof based on this statement, or by this guy. Anything else falls short of showing that this is racist in any way.
.
Again we are not arguing that it was a stupid and idiotic statement, because it was. But to call it racist is looking for racism where it does not exist and thereby makes any subject you call racism on come into question. Based on this thread alone I find you to have no credibility on the topic of racism.

 

[gregbroncs]

Incorrect. Racism is a contributing influence, but there are always other influences at play. For example, he would not have made that remark about the sisters if they had never won a Grand Slam event, just as much as he would not have made it had they not been black.

I would like proof of what he would not have said based on their color. Please provide said proof. The last statement in your post is more racist than anything said by the guy we are discussing. Your are applying your own views to a guy based on something that is simply not there.

 

[stitches]

Your prior post did not contain "their own", but I accept that this is what you intended. Certainly, the largest ethnic groups in Russia would be considered white here in the US (I'm not sure that, for example, the Turkic groups are considered white in Russia; we've had a couple of Russians in this forum say bigoted things about players like Kanter).

I know, this is another big ethnic group that is somewhat stigmatized in our(Bulgarian) population. This is due to historical/religious factors. My point is - you need to have some big enough population/or in general big enough conversation about "the other" group for some sort of meme to perpetrate society. In general in non-English speaking countries without a visible minority of that race, those kinds of memes have hard time perpetrating the general population.

The these opinions are based on contact with populations largely external doesn't seem to have hindered their virulence or negativity, so I am curious why you feel this ameliorates the level of racism in Russian culture.

I don't think it ameliorates the level of racism(it might even be worse as far as pure % of people it affects). I just think in the general population the racism is more based on and expressed as xenophobia(distrust of the other, the different), rather than on specific negative stereotypes.

In 1814, perhaps, you could say that cultural memes were primarily transmitted by personal contact. In 2014, mass media does the job nicely. Conditioning can happen fairly rapidly, in as few as three or four exposures, if there is no counter-messaging.

Well, the lack of such memes would rule out any country where English is spoken natively, so I want to first congratulate you your excellent command of the language.

Yah, I think you touched on something very probable here - even in the age of mass media and social media, I still think there is a very limited spreading of those cultural memes among foreign populations who are not natively speaking the language of origin of those memes.

Unless you're from a place like Canada, and are under the impression that, say, black people in Canada don't experience the sort of racism that black people in the US experience (a least one black Canadian I read says otherwise).

However, since I don't know which country you mean, I can't really argue such a point.

I currently live in Canada, but I am originally from Bulgaria. Without ever having lived in the US I am wary of giving a categorical assessment about the situation there. From studies I've read there is well-observed institutional discrimination based on race(criminal court decisions, etc.), as well as hidden but very real discrimination in the private sector on basis of race. I try not to take anecdotes as evidence for racism, simply because anecdotes are poor source for rigid and sound data on a problem. I haven't read any studies about it in Canada, so I can't say if the problem is as bad as it is in the US.

 

[Hantlers]

They look like women.

Do you walk around scared of every person who's 6 feet tall and had some muscles? That must be very difficult for you to live that way. How do you manage to leave the house?

I was mainly making jokes, but continue with your crusade.

 

[moevillini]

watching Sharapova and Wozniacki right now

they are both more long and lean and not nearly as muscular in body structure as Venus or Serena

 

[Siro]

Serena Williams is probably the most muscular tennis player, regardless of sex. Venus isn't all that muscular though.

 

[moevillini]

but I'd still be scared to face either one of them on a tennis court

 

[moevillini]

well I know which one I think is the scariest looking (in a non-threatening of violence kind of way)

 

[Chris-L]

almost made it to page 3. dunno how you guys do this ****.

 

[franklin]

almost made it to page 3. dunno how you guys do this ****.

Some of us don't work for a living. We work for the feds, the state, or BYU.

 

[One Brow]

As was said before you are leveling the charges of racism against a statement any sane person does not see it in.

So, among others, Serena Williams, Willie, and I are all not same. Thank you for keeping the calm, objective rhetoric.

Therefore the burden of proof is on you the accuser not on the people calling out your BS. All you have done in this thread is throw out unsupported accusations based on some mythical cultural phenomenon.

The cultural phenomenon is well-studied and well-understood, and if you cared at all about these issues, you would take the time to research that and understand it. Your describing it as mythical is akin to Ken Ham downplaying evolution or Robert Kennedy's anti-vaccine nonsense.

You need proof based on this statement, or by this guy.

I feel no need to accept your level of proof as needed, relevant, or significant in determining reality.

Based on this thread alone I find you to have no credibility on the topic of racism.

You mean, as opposed to all those other thread where you thought I had credibility? *snort*.

 

[One Brow]

I would like proof of what he would not have said based on their color.

The complete absence of similar statement about white female tennis players.

The last statement in your post is more racist than anything said by the guy we are discussing.

Feel free to prove it so.

Your are applying your own views to a guy based on something that is simply not there.

I'm not applying them to "a guy" at all.

 

[One Brow]

I know, this is another big ethnic group that is somewhat stigmatized in our(Bulgarian) population. This is due to historical/religious factors. My point is - you need to have some big enough population/or in general big enough conversation about "the other" group for some sort of meme to perpetrate society. In general in non-English speaking countries without a visible minority of that race, those kinds of memes have hard time perpetrating the general population.

When you look at how human cognition proceeds, one of the things you learn is that humans like to make short cuts and quick connections in our thinking, and this short cuts persist for very long periods of time. This link refers to them as "fast, automatic, and unconscious". Stereotypes get loaded into this system easily. It does not require much to load the system, and afterward they are maintained for a while.

I don't think it ameliorates the level of racism(it might even be worse as far as pure % of people it affects). I just think in the general population the racism is more based on and expressed as xenophobia(distrust of the other, the different), rather than on specific negative stereotypes.

Perhaps you are correct there, and that could just as easily account for the "scary looking" comment as any particular negative stereotype.

Yah, I think you touched on something very probable here - even in the age of mass media and social media, I still think there is a very limited spreading of those cultural memes among foreign populations who are not natively speaking the language of origin of those memes.

I'll certainly acknowledge that I don't know enough about the experiences that are common to many Bulgarians, and in particular what aspects of those experiences are pretty much the same or very different from the experiences here in the US. Most of what I know about Slavic cultures generally I have picked up here and there from mass media and a year of Russian I took 30 years ago.

However, even with that limited exposure, I would say that I have a few stereotypes about Slavic cultures.

I try not to take anecdotes as evidence for racism, simply because anecdotes are poor source for rigid and sound data on a problem. I haven't read any studies about it in Canada, so I can't say if the problem is as bad as it is in the US.

That's a method of thinking I heartily endorse.

 

[One Brow]

I was mainly making jokes, but continue with your crusade.

You were joking? You? Really? And here I was, thinking you were actually cowering inside your home. How about that.