BasketballInsiders: Rudy Gobert is Ahead of Schedule

[stitches]

San Antonio acquiring Duncan.

Cleveland sucking to get LeBron, Irving etc.

New Orleans getting Davis after parting ways with CP3.

OKC continually sucking to get Durant, Westbrook, and Harden.

Every team sucked at some point to get their star players.

All these examples prove two things:

1. Sucking for a period of time does not create a losing culture that the team can't recover from.

2. Just about every team gets their franchise player via the draft, and usually toward the very top of it.

You have to have talent to win it all in the NBA. For a small market team like Utah the draft is the only way they can acquire truly talented players. We've got some really nice young pieces, but adding more is only going to help. If losing three more games this season is going to be the difference between drafting Russell and drafting Winslow, then I'd rather lose a few more games. I'm not saying the coaches or players should try to lose, I'm just saying it's what would be best for the long term outlook of the team, and the FO should make moves to help that happen, if they present themselves.

Yep, very well said. Almost all teams acquire their franchise players through the draft or through trades at draftnight for rookies and most of them are acquired in the top 10. I did the calculations a while ago and the numbers were something like - 10 "superstars" in 1-3 pick, 7 in 4-6 picks, 6 in 7-10 picks and 4 for 11-60 picks...

The "losing culture" myth has absolutely nothing with reality. There is overwhelming evidence that higher picks give you higher chance to land a superstar and that winning depends on the talent you have, and not on the "culture". When you have good enough players you win, and it doesn't matter if you were losing in order to get those players.

 

[fishonjazz]

When you have good enough players you win

This, plain and simple.
Best way to get those players for a team like the jazz is via the draft

 

[Jamezz]

Okay

 

[Coach Ellis]

D'Angelo ****ing Russell

This is the kind of middle name that you get when the nurse is filling out the paperwork while mom is still in labor. . .

 

[b_line]

Hey guys, we drafted rudy at 27, so that proves that all good players come in the last three picks of the first round. It's a rule. Look it up. No need to get high picks or trade for them anymore.




Just patiently waiting for Miami to be title co tenders with that Napier kid they drafted, and that d leaguer okc picked up is gonna blow up the league real soon. Glad they dont have any losing culture to spoil them like we have with gobert.

 

[Grandpa Jazz]

Yeah. Duh. No one ever said that the players should try to lose.

This is a common misconception anti-tankers have about the meaning of the word "tank". Look at Philly. The players aren't going out there and saying, "Let's get this L, guiz", yet it's still one of the biggest tank jobs in history.

And your point about how we were all wrong about tanking for player X. Umm...pretty sure we'd all be pretty happy if we had Wiggins like we all originally wanted, and I'm pretty sure we're all happy we have Exum now (yes, we got him by tanking, whether you like it or not). And adding another player like Russell to the team would help us become contenders down the line, too.

So, then you are saying that "tanker" types are just fans of an absolutely awful franchise and say their team is "tanking" as a way of justifying being a fan of that team? Kind of like a synonym for re-building?

Many of you certainly do believe that tanking teams are actually trying to lose games (either players, coach or front office). All you need to do is re-read those threads. Far from everyone wanting Wiggins there was much disagreement about who we were tanking for and by the way as impressive as Wiggins skills are he is not yet a great player himself. Exum ( and Randle, and others ) could turn out to be the better player(s). The best thing that the Jazz have done to get better was Rudy Gobert (and the D-Will trade) and he didn't come from "tanking" in any sense he came from an astute gamble that seems to be paying off. I get tickled every time I think about how Denver must feel about that deal.

We really are both saying the same thing then. That "tanking" isn't a real thing, it is just a myth. Certainly a consensus opinion is that S.A. "tanked on purpose" to get Tim Duncan. I don't agree with that assessment either.

 

[fishonjazz]

So, then you are saying that "tanker" types are just fans of an absolutely awful franchise and say their team is "tanking" as a way of justifying being a fan of that team? Kind of like a synonym for re-building?

Many of you certainly do believe that tanking teams are actually trying to lose games (either players, coach or front office). All you need to do is re-read those threads. Far from everyone wanting Wiggins there was much disagreement about who we were tanking for and by the way as impressive as Wiggins skills are he is not yet a great player himself. Exum ( and Randle, and others ) could turn out to be the better player(s). The best thing that the Jazz have done to get better was Rudy Gobert (and the D-Will trade) and he didn't come from "tanking" in any sense he came from an astute gamble that seems to be paying off. I get tickled every time I think about how Denver must feel about that deal.

We really are both saying the same thing then. That "tanking" isn't a real thing, it is just a myth. Certainly a consensus opinion is that S.A. "tanked on purpose" to get Tim Duncan. I don't agree with that assessment either.

So forget the term "tanking" for just a minute.
Would you rather have the #1 pick or the #12 pick?
4th pick or 10th pick?

5th pick or 7th pick?

Most of us "tankers" simply are happy with losses because we know it increases our odds of getting a better pick and we think that better picks > worse picks.

 

[Jamezz]

So forget the term "tanking" for just a minute.
Would you rather have the #1 pick or the #12 pick?
4th pick or 10th pick?

5th pick or 7th pick?

Most of us "tankers" simply are happy with losses because we know it increases our odds of getting a better pick and we think that better picks > worse picks.

Ugh, when is this myth ever gonna stop. Look right down here kid, tell me what you see:

Kenneth Faried went 22nd in 2011.
Marc Gasol went 48th in 2007.
Rajon Rondo went 21st in 2006.
Tony Parker went 28th in 2001.
Manu Ginobili went 57th in 1999.
Kobe Bryant went 13th in 1996.
Steve Nash went 15th in 1996.
Shawn Kemp went 17th in 1989.
Karl Malone went 13th in 1985.
Joe Dumars went 18th in 1985.
John Stockton went 16th in 1984.
Clyde Drexler went 14th in 1983.
Alex English went 23rd in 1976.

You know, just to name a few...

 

[Stoked]

Ugh, when is this myth ever gonna stop. Look right down here kid, tell me what you see:

Kenneth Faried went 22nd in 2011.
Marc Gasol went 48th in 2007.
Rajon Rondo went 21st in 2006.
Tony Parker went 28th in 2001.
Manu Ginobili went 57th in 1999.
Kobe Bryant went 13th in 1996.
Steve Nash went 15th in 1996.
Shawn Kemp went 17th in 1989.
Karl Malone went 13th in 1985.
Joe Dumars went 18th in 1985.
John Stockton went 16th in 1984.
Clyde Drexler went 14th in 1983.
Alex English went 23rd in 1976.

You know, just to name a few...

This is a horrible response. If you wanted to be fair (you don't) then you would find a way to compare top 5 picks success v. 6-10, 11-15 and 16-20 or something similar.

But since we are using horrible examples. Paul Millsap went in the second round so clearly that is where one wants to draft. Trade all the first rounders, they are useless anyways...

 

[b_line]

Lebron James went number 1 in 2003
Anthony Davis was drafted first
Tim Duncan was drafted first.
Kevin Durant second
Dwayne wade fifth
Shaq was the first pick
Jordan was the second pick
Hakeem was the first pick


Those guys all suck compared to jamezzzzzzzz list though.

 

[Bawse Dawg]

Ugh, when is this myth ever gonna stop. Look right down here kid, tell me what you see:

Kenneth Faried went 22nd in 2011.
Marc Gasol went 48th in 2007.
Rajon Rondo went 21st in 2006.
Tony Parker went 28th in 2001.
Manu Ginobili went 57th in 1999.
Kobe Bryant went 13th in 1996.
Steve Nash went 15th in 1996.
Shawn Kemp went 17th in 1989.
Karl Malone went 13th in 1985.
Joe Dumars went 18th in 1985.
John Stockton went 16th in 1984.
Clyde Drexler went 14th in 1983.
Alex English went 23rd in 1976.

You know, just to name a few...

No, just to name them all. Over the course of 40 years. Shall I make a list consisting of top 8 picks?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jamezz]

This is a horrible response. If you wanted to be fair (you don't) then you would find a way to compare top 5 picks success v. 6-10, 11-15 and 16-20 or something similar.

But since we are using horrible examples. Paul Millsap went in the second round so clearly that is where one wants to draft. Trade all the first rounders, they are useless anyways...

LOL ok, I'll take it to the extreme too since it seems you're a fan of doing this. Let's lose all the games from here to end of the season, the more losses the better right?
Sorry you're not gonna get me to buy into this pile of you know what, keep trying...