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Len's Elbow on Hill

Stoked said:
So, play timid D and don't push anything?

No thanks. Play exactly as you are Hill.
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No just don't put your face 3 inches from a 7 footer clearing the lane. A healthy 90%-defensive-effort hill is better than hill playing 35 games this season.

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jope said:
No just don't put your face 3 inches from a 7 footer clearing the lane. A healthy 90%-defensive-effort hill is better than hill playing 35 games this season.

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We are simply going to disagree.
 
Stoked said:
I hope Hill comes back as strong on D as before. Hill was fine.
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sure, so do i. but he can make conscious decisions to try to avoid injury, which includes knowing when to back off a bit.. he is on pace to play 28 games (34% of 82 games) this season, and is arguably our most important player offensively, and 2nd most important defensively. he needs to play first and foremost, because his aggressive d is a moot point if he's not on the floor.
 
jope said:
sure, so do i. but he can make conscious decisions to try to avoid injury, which includes knowing when to back off a bit.. he is on pace to play 28 games (34% of 82 games) this season, and is arguably our most important player offensively, and 2nd most important defensively. he needs to play first and foremost, because his aggressive d is a moot point if he's not on the floor.
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I see what you're saying but he is the Hill we need because of how he plays. Changing that to be less aggressive won't help Utah.
 
Stoked said:
I see what you're saying but he is the Hill we need because of how he plays. Changing that to be less aggressive won't help Utah.
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ok i guess we truly disagree then, because even a less defensively aggressive hill is a serious upgrade over mack, exum, and neto. his stability, poise, and threat offensively do wonders for this team. i'd rather have a less aggressive yet healthy and engaged hill for 60 games, rather than an aggressive, beat up and battered hill for 30 games.
 
jope said:
ok i guess we truly disagree then, because even a less defensively aggressive hill is a serious upgrade over mack, exum, and neto. his stability, poise, and threat offensively do wonders for this team. i'd rather have a less aggressive yet healthy and engaged hill for 60 games, rather than an aggressive, beat up and battered hill for 30 games.
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We can have the same conversation about Alec Burks. Should he continue to attack the rim with reckless abandon? If he doesn't, how effective will he be? If he does, how long will he last?

We can have the same conversation about every NBA player. Look at what became of Derrick Rose. Personally, I think what ruined DWill is that he stopped playing balls to the wall. My theory is that he realized he had to stop if he wanted to have a long career. The summer of 2010 he covered up his "No Guts No Glory" tattoos. I think it was a choice he purposefully made because his play reflected it.


Personally I agree with jope. I see Stoked's point, but I think GHill needs to pick and choose his battles a little more wisely. Sure he saved the team 2 points, but it also most likely caused at least 2 losses (Boston and Toronto.)
 
PG_AB said:
I wish we had someone who's like 6'10" commenting on this elbow. I think there's a biased one-sided (short persons) perspective being applied here.
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not 6'10" but i did play F/C in HS and was always taught to have your elbows up and pivot through. If they catch your elbow, they shouldn't be crowding you so much. Its stepping through your pivot with your hands tight on the ball, elbows up. It is not, violently swinging your elbows, your strength coming from your core.
 
AKistheFEARFACTOR said:
not 6'10" but i did play F/C in HS and was always taught to have your elbows up and pivot through. If they catch your elbow, they shouldn't be crowding you so much. Its stepping through your pivot with your hands tight on the ball, elbows up. It is not, violently swinging your elbows, your strength coming from your core.
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Agree here... Hill should have been more cautious... Len wasn't trying to be dirty but was likely trying to make contact... don't think he was trying to hurt anyone. I wish we had earl watson still playing though because you do want to step up and let the guy know that ain't cool... it's reckless but not malicious imo.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Agree here... Hill should have been more cautious... Len wasn't trying to be dirty but was likely trying to make contact... don't think he was trying to hurt anyone. I wish we had earl watson still playing though because you do want to step up and let the guy know that ain't cool... it's reckless but not malicious imo.
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If you have to pivot, then yes, you bring your elbows up and pivot. However, if brought his up and pulled through hard with his core... then RETURNED back to where he was to shoot. And he looked at Hill prior.

I don't think he meant to give him a concussion, but he knew he was sending a message.
 
Stoked said:
Stockton and Malone were dirty players. Elbows, kicks, nasty/mean checks, tugging, pushing, body checking...

I'm not anti Stockton or Malone. Hell, Stockton is my all time favorite player. But let's be honest, they played dirty.
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No, not dirty. They were taught as was I, that you swing elbows to clear space. Stick an elbow out to strengthen a screen. You play tough, and rightly so, you expect the same in return. Today's NBA has has taught players that if you get touched it is a foul, if not a dirty play. I would love to see James or Harden play in the 80's or even early 90's. How do you think James would handle Barkly, Mahorn or Malone?

No, not dirty, just tough. The Jazz could use some.
 
Scat said:
No, not dirty. They were taught as was I, that you swing elbows to clear space. Stick an elbow out to strengthen a screen. You play tough, and rightly so, you expect the same in return. Today's NBA has has taught players that if you get touched it is a foul, if not a dirty play. I would love to see James or Harden play in the 80's or even early 90's. How do you think James would handle Barkly, Mahorn or Malone?

No, not dirty, just tough. The Jazz could use some.
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Lebron would be great in any era.
You think he couldn't adapt his game to be more physical? Silly goose
 
Scat said:
No, not dirty. They were taught as was I, that you swing elbows to clear space. Stick an elbow out to strengthen a screen. You play tough, and rightly so, you expect the same in return. Today's NBA has has taught players that if you get touched it is a foul, if not a dirty play. I would love to see James or Harden play in the 80's or even early 90's. How do you think James would handle Barkly, Mahorn or Malone?

No, not dirty, just tough. The Jazz could use some.
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I guess I need to watch some old NBA games. I just don't remember it being so much more physical than today. If so, why are there more injuries now than in those days? Stockton and Malone were known for their physical play and of course, the Bad Boys, but I don't see it as any worse than today. Supposedly, they have the hand check rule in force now. I say supposedly because they never call it. Players are constantly pushing off, both offensive and defensive, and they hardly ever call it unless someone is shooting, and then it's only the defense because offensive players often get away with clearing space with their arms.
 
Eenie-Meenie said:
I guess I need to watch some old NBA games. I just don't remember it being so much more physical than today. If so, why are there more injuries now than in those days? Stockton and Malone were known for their physical play and of course, the Bad Boys, but I don't see it as any worse than today. Supposedly, they have the hand check rule in force now. I say supposedly because they never call it. Players are constantly pushing off, both offensive and defensive, and they hardly ever call it unless someone is shooting, and then it's only the defense because offensive players often get away with clearing space with their arms.
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Great observation. Pushing off is the new normal. So is slapping someones arms or hands away when they try to push off. You could say that the game has gotten away from the refs there's so much contact. Ingles is good at this game, like when he pushed his man a few games ago on the last play.

And IMO the Len play was super dirty.
 
No matter what level of physicality is present in the game, the players should know and prepare to brush up against that threshold.

Even an expert, however, will still find themselves at the end of an elbow in the NBA. Which is precisely why every team needs an enforcer to make sure physicality doesn't become a disadvantage for your team.

Not sure the Jazz have one at this point.
 
fishonjazz said:
Lebron would be great in any era.
You think he couldn't adapt his game to be more physical? Silly goose
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I agree that Lebron would be fine, so would Westbrooke actually. Guys like Harden, Curry, Draymond Green and most of the players in the league would have a lot of problems in the 80's
 
Eenie-Meenie said:
I guess I need to watch some old NBA games. I just don't remember it being so much more physical than today. If so, why are there more injuries now than in those days? Stockton and Malone were known for their physical play and of course, the Bad Boys, but I don't see it as any worse than today. Supposedly, they have the hand check rule in force now. I say supposedly because they never call it. Players are constantly pushing off, both offensive and defensive, and they hardly ever call it unless someone is shooting, and then it's only the defense because offensive players often get away with clearing space with their arms.
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Back then you could use your arms to hand check, you could hit guys in the head without it being a flagrant foul. You could use arm bars against post players, and elbows to set screens. Right now the league is getting soft on holding and pushing off, but that's nothing compared to the 80's.
 
Eenie-Meenie said:
I guess I need to watch some old NBA games. I just don't remember it being so much more physical than today. If so, why are there more injuries now than in those days? Stockton and Malone were known for their physical play and of course, the Bad Boys, but I don't see it as any worse than today. Supposedly, they have the hand check rule in force now. I say supposedly because they never call it. Players are constantly pushing off, both offensive and defensive, and they hardly ever call it unless someone is shooting, and then it's only the defense because offensive players often get away with clearing space with their arms.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdUT3GPlGwU
 
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