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LogGrad98 said:
No one is saying he worked out great, just that you have a terrible definition of a bad pick. Was Roy tarpley a bad pick because he eventually had drug issues? You can't apply the lessons of hindsight to the judgement of a given choice at that moment and say duh it was a bad choice. No "duh" involved. Picking Bowie was a mistake, picking Len Bias was unfortunate. Wright falls into the unfortunate category but at the time of the pick no one faulted them for it.
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Maybe if we defined it as "the pick who we were really excited about who didn't pan out for whatever reason" instead of draft mistake?
 
infection said:
I still say the biggest draft mistake was when we traded a pick plus Blue Edwards and Eric Murdock for Jay Humphries and Larry Kryskowiak, where we could have drafted Sprewell.

Stockton / Eisley
Hornacek / Anderson
Sprewell / Russell
Malone / Carr
Ostertag / Foster
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Sloan wouldn’t have lasted 2 years with Sprewell. Sprewell would have attempted to choke out coach and would have ended up in the hospital and the incident would have forced coach to retire early.
 
I’m in the Stock, Mailman, Gobert, Spida camp, but I go with Sap.

He has a decent 3 without the drama, can rebound, and is an underrated defender. I thought about getting Bailey in here somehow.

I would never put Hayward on a 5, 10, or 15 man list. He doesn’t want to be on a Jazz list, he wants to be on a Celtic list.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
You trying hard to say dumb ****
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Kyoto said:
Um... Luther Wright, not even close
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TheStormofWar said:
Jose Ortiz or Luther Wright, and it's not even close.
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Not sure any of you understand what it means to make a draft "mistake." A draft "mistake" occurs when a team could/should have drafted one player who turns out to be much better than the player they actually drafted. In fairness to the teams making the picks, it probably doesn't make sense to look beyond the five players taken after the pick in question as anyone taken more than five players after the pick would have likely been a "stretch" with the information available at the time.

When the Jazz selected Deron Williams with the third pick of the 2005 NBA Draft, the conventional wisdom by most experts was that Chris Paul, selected with the 4th pick, would have been the better choice. Those experts were right. Williams played in 845 NBA regular season games averaging 16.3 ppg, 8.1 apg, 3.1 rpg, and 1.0 spg, was a 3-time All Star, and will NOT be in the HOF. Paul is arguably a top 5 PG of all time and is an absolute 1st ballot HOFer. Paul has played in 950 NBA regular season games averaging 18.5 ppg, 9.7 apg, 4.5 rpg, and 2.2 spg. He was Rookie of the Year, a 9-time All Star, on 18 All League Teams (including four times as an All NBA 1st Teamer and nine times on the All Defensive squad), and was top 5 in MVP voting four times and top 10 in MVP voting seven times. For his career, Paul is top 10 in NBA history in assists, steals, assists per game (3rd), steals per game (5th), Assist Pct (2nd), Steal Pct, Player Efficiency Rating, Offensive Rating (1st), Offensive Win Shares, Win Shares Per 48 (4th), Box Plus/Minus (5th), Offensive Plus/Minus (5th), and Value Over Replacement Player. Williams is top 10 in only one category: Assist Pct (9th). Passing on Paul was easily the biggest mistake in the Utah Jazz draft history. The only other one that comes close was drafting Darrell Griffith over Kevin McHale.

Tell me which HUGE mistake the Jazz made by not drafting someone else they could/should have drafted instead of Jose Ortiz or Luther Wright? Only two players drafted within the five players taken after Ortiz (15th, 1987) had meaningful NBA careers: Mark Jackson (18th, whom the Jazz were never going to select given that they already had Rickey Green and John Stockton) and Ken Norman (19th, averaged 13.5 ppg in 646 NBA games -- an arguable mistake and potential backup for Malone, but Norman would not have averaged double-figures for the Jazz with Malone and Bailey in front of him).

As for Wright (18th, 1993), no one -- not even Wright -- had any idea he was suffering from bipolar disorder when he was drafted. He didn't have his first manic episode until the Jazz had already drafted him. It is impossible to know how good a player Wright may have been but for his bipolar disorder cutting his career short in its infancy. Nor were there any "star" players taken within five spots after him. Chris Mills at 22 and Sam Cassell at 23 came closest, but Cassell was never going to start ahead of Stockton and Mills was far from a star in the league. Again, not even close to the level of mistake that the Jazz made when passing on Chris Paul (or McHale).
 
Kyoto said:
Lottery pick that played like 12 games for the Jazz and was given a $5M contract. Was booted off of the team for coming into practice high on cocaine
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Two major factual errors here: Wright was not a lottery pick and was not booted off the team for coming to practice high on coke. He was the 18th pick of the 1993 draft (not lottery) and was diagnosed with bipolar disorder AFTER he was already drafted.
 
ChicAggie said:
Tell me which HUGE mistake the Jazz made by not drafting someone else they could/should have drafted instead of Jose Ortiz or Luther Wright? Only two players drafted within the five players taken after Ortiz (15th, 1987) had meaningful NBA careers: Mark Jackson (18th, whom the Jazz were never going to select given that they already had Rickey Green and John Stockton) and Ken Norman (19th, averaged 13.5 ppg in 646 NBA games -- an arguable mistake and potential backup for Malone, but Norman would not have averaged double-figures for the Jazz with Malone and Bailey in front of him).
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Chris Mills, Ervin Johnson, Corie Blount and Sam Cassell were available after Luther.

You can draft a player that looks great on paper, all the scouts say will be surefire, and still have it be wrong. The only thing you can ever do in the draft is make the best guess you can based upon the available data. No one ever really knocks the organization for picks like Luther or Ortiz because they understand that. Drafting is a gamble, period. Regardless, those become, by definition, mistakes.
 
LogGrad98 said:
Biggest draft mistakes were

1) selling the #1 pick that became magic Johnson for cash

2) drafting kanter at what, 3? And in the same draft picking Burks over Kawhi? Ugh

3) giving up assets to move up to draft Trey Burke instead of the Greek freak

4) D Will over CP3, although I see this as more of a crap shoot. Coming out of college they were pretty even.

5) giving up Dominique. I know he didn't want to play here but man they just dumped him for nothing.

6) Lopez over Parker. I normally give a pass for late draft flubs because of the substantial drop-off past about pick 12, but this one was just a bad read.

7) drafting Exum at all.

You could probably move them around a bit in order but that's how I see it generally. I don't count taking players that just didn't pan out as mistakes unless they gave up assets to get them because the draft is always something of a crap shoot.
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1. Magic Johnson/Gail Goodrich. The Jazz did not sell the #1 pick that became Magic Johnson for cash. Nor did they trade the pick to the Lakers for Gail Goodrich. What happened was the Jazz acquired Gail Goodrich as a free agent, and AFTER THE FACT the NBA made the Jazz give up the draft choice that became Magic Johnson to the Lakers as compensation. Complete hose job by the NBA to discourage teams from signing away other teams' free agents.

2. Kanter. Who should the Jazz have drafted instead? The five players taken immediately after Kanter were Tristan Thompson, Jonas Valanciunas, Jan Vesely, Bismack Biyombo, and Brandon Knight. Three of those players were significantly worse picks than Kanter and two of them are only arguably better.

3. Trey Burke. He was the college player of the year, and most experts thought the Jazz made a major steal trading up to get him. While 20/20 hindsight tells us it was a mistake not picking Antetokuompo, there is a reason he went 15th in that draft: the experts didn't know what to make of him. He was a lightning-in-a-bottle find by the Bucks.

4. DWill/CP3. Almost no expert thought DWill and CP3 were even coming out of college. Nearly all projected CP3 as the better player. And regardless of what the experts thought, they were taken back-to-back and CP3 turned out to be MUCH better. Biggest draft mistake the Jazz ever made.

5. Wilkins. The Jazz had no choice. Dominique refused to report to the Jazz and said he would rather sit out an entire year than ever sign with the Jazz. Dominique forced that trade and there was really nothing the Jazz could do about it.

6. Lopez (24th, 2001) over Parker (28th). Agreed. This was definitely one of the biggest draft mistakes in Jazz history. I know many Jazz-colored-glasses fans still defend this pick, but even without the injury problems, I never viewed Lopez as a starter-caliber PG in the NBA. Indeed, all six players taken immediately after Lopez turned out to be better picks (which is highly unusual for that late in the draft): Gerald Wallace, Samuel Dalembert, Jamaal Tinsley, Tony Parker, Trent Hassell, and Gilbert Arenas.

7. Exum (5th, 2014). Hard to know if this was a mistake. Completely unpredictable injury bugs have given him virtually no opportunity to show what he could have been or might become. Nor have the players taken immediately after him turned into major stars: Marcus Smart, Julius Randle, Nik Stauskas, Noah Vonleh, Elfrid Payton, and Doug McDermott. Meh.
 
TheStormofWar said:
Chris Mills, Ervin Johnson, Corie Blount and Sam Cassell were available after Luther.

You can draft a player that looks great on paper, all the scouts say will be surefire, and still have it be wrong. The only thing you can ever do in the draft is make the best guess you can based upon the available data. No one ever really knocks the organization for picks like Luther or Ortiz because they understand that. Drafting is a gamble, period. Regardless, those become, by definition, mistakes.
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Yeah, I mentioned Mills and Cassell (never going to draft Cassell given roster makeup). Hilarious that you implicitly suggest that passing on Chris Mills, Ervin Johnson, Corie Blount, and Sam Cassell was a bigger mistake than passing on CP3. Umm, okay.
 
ChicAggie said:
Yeah, I mentioned Mills and Cassell (never going to draft Cassell given roster makeup). Hilarious that you implicitly suggest that passing on Chris Mills, Ervin Johnson, Corie Blount, and Sam Cassell was a bigger mistake than passing on CP3. Umm, okay.
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CP3 and Deron were interchangeable as far as draft potential across all the boards. Some had Deron higher because of his size, while others had CP3 because he was a touch faster. Deron became a three time all-star (granted, two were with BKL) and 2x all-nba player. Dude was good when he gave a damn. Again, I don't knock the organization for drafting Luther or Ortiz or Borchardt. Stuff happens that we can't control. But a mistake is, by definition, an incorrect action. As such, those were mistakes. It happens.
 
TheStormofWar said:
CP3 and Deron were interchangeable as far as draft potential across all the boards. Some had Deron higher because of his size, while others had CP3 because he was a touch faster. Deron became a three time all-star (granted, two were with BKL) and 2x all-nba player. Dude was good when he gave a damn. Again, I don't knock the organization for drafting Luther or Ortiz or Borchardt. Stuff happens that we can't control. But a mistake is, by definition, an incorrect action. As such, those were mistakes. It happens.
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You and I remember things differently. I would bet a significant sum that if there is a way to compile the draft rankings of every team (or the major experts), Paul was rated higher on the majority. Indeed, I just found one for the Hornets following pre-draft workouts where Williams was ranked not just below Paul, but also below Raymond Felton.

Regardless, that discussion is irrelevant. The point is that they were drafted back-to-back, and it turns out it was a HUGE mistake to take Williams over Paul. It was NOT a huge mistake to take Luther or Ortiz over anyone drafted after them. A mistake? Probably. But a minor mistake in comparison.
 
For example, there's this from Jonathan Givony right after the draft:

Deron Williams: I feel like Chris Paul is definitely going to be the better player down the road, but the Jazz deserve serious props for moving up in the draft the way they did and giving up so little. Things weren’t looking great for them sitting at #6, but they did what they needed to do and got exactly the player they want, which is exactly what the draft is all about. - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/article/2005-NBA-Draft-Grades-1029/ ©DraftExpress

Chris Paul: Possibly the best player in this draft in Chris Paul fell right into their lap at #4 and New Orleans gobbled him up as they should have. - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/article/2005-NBA-Draft-Grades-1029/©DraftExpress
 
TheStormofWar said:
CP3 and Deron were interchangeable as far as draft potential across all the boards. Some had Deron higher because of his size, while others had CP3 because he was a touch faster. Deron became a three time all-star (granted, two were with BKL) and 2x all-nba player. Dude was good when he gave a damn. Again, I don't knock the organization for drafting Luther or Ortiz or Borchardt. Stuff happens that we can't control. But a mistake is, by definition, an incorrect action. As such, those were mistakes. It happens.
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A mistake is an incorrect action, so picking up a bottle of orange juice when you meant to pick up a bottle of milk is a mistake. But if you actually pick up the milk and open it and it turns out to be orange juice isn't a mistake on your part. It's an unfortunate event. Even if you knew there was, say, a 30% chance that bottle would contain something other than milk it still isn't a mistake. You played the odds, it was a good guess. But not a mistake. That's the problem with these kinds is discussions, it is not black and white. So I don't think any of those last ones mentioned were mistakes. They were, unfortunately, something other than milk.
 
LogGrad98 said:
A mistake is an incorrect action, so picking up a bottle of orange juice when you meant to pick up a bottle of milk is a mistake. But if you actually pick up the milk and open it and it turns out to be orange juice isn't a mistake on your part. It's an unfortunate event. Even if you knew there was, say, a 30% chance that bottle would contain something other than milk it still isn't a mistake. You played the odds, it was a good guess. But not a mistake. That's the problem with these kinds is discussions, it is not black and white. So I don't think any of those last ones mentioned were mistakes. They were, unfortunately, something other than milk.
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Semantics. There are all kinds of "mistakes." The example you give is one. A "poor choice" that produces an outcome that the actor did not intend is another type of mistake. See, e.g., Merriam Webster, Oxford, and Cambridge: "an action or decision that is wrong or produces a result that is not correct or not intended."

My wife and I go to a restaurant. We are torn on what to order: I order the short ribs, she orders the black cod. Both look like good options; I'm honestly not sure which one is going to be better. Turns out my short ribs are overcooked, dry, and one-note while her black cod melts in my mouth like butter while my taste buds explode in a simultaneous orgasm. She made the better choice. Did I make a mistake? Depends on how you define it. Poor choice. Yes. Was that poor choice a "mistake?" Absolutely. I certainly desired a better experience with my meal and would have had that experience had I not chosen poorly.

Same scenario with a twist: My wife and I walk into that same restaurant having done our research. Both friends and critics alike agree that the black cod is one of the best seafood dishes any of them has ever had. But I don't feel like seafood. I want something heartier, so I still choose the short ribs because that's what I feel like that night. I think it probably will suit my palate better. But I was wrong. I made a mistake by not listening to the experts.

Twenty/twenty hindsight teaches us that the Jazz made a terrible mistake drafting DWill instead of CP3 no matter how you characterize it -- exacerbated by the fact that most experts agreed that CP3 was the better choice.

As for the semantics debate we seem to be having, I chose to characterize DWill as "arguably the biggest draft mistake in Jazz history" in my OP, but could have easily said he was "arguably the poorest choice of any draft pick in Jazz history." Either way, I stand by my post.
 
ChicAggie said:
Two major factual errors here: Wright was not a lottery pick and was not booted off the team for coming to practice high on coke. He was the 18th pick of the 1993 draft (not lottery) and was diagnosed with bipolar disorder AFTER he was already drafted.
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Pretty sure that Wright was attacked by a grizzly bear out by the Tree of Life.
 
Wes Mantooth said:
Srsly?
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LOL No. His mom cried when she heard he got drafted by Utah because she was positive that he was going to be attacked by a bear. The Tree of Life, I believe, is close to where he was found smashing car windows after his first mental break. I've heard rumors that he was naked but have never seen this substantiated.

As an aside, the Jazz agreed to pay Wright $153,000K a year for 25 years after he left the team.
 
ChicAggie said:
5. Wilkins. The Jazz had no choice. Dominique refused to report to the Jazz and said he would rather sit out an entire year than ever sign with the Jazz. Dominique forced that trade and there was really nothing the Jazz could do about it.
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I could be off, but I thought ai remembered the trade or Dominique for cash as a deal to save the Jazz and that if they didn’t get the cash they were done. 3 Mil or some such number. If not for that trade, no Jazz. I’d call that a successful trade because of necessity.
 
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