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We’re getting pie faced on Last Dance

Just watched ep 10. god dammit as much as I hate to admit it that wasn't a push off. A lot of weird memories coming back from my 14 year old self though.
 
It's really hard to say how Rony Seikaly would have impacted the '98 Jazz. Everyone kind of just assumed their weakness was always at center, and yet, to get to the NBA Finals, the Jazz had to go through Hakeem, Duncan/Robinson and Shaq - only to face the Thorn from Melbourne, Luc Longley lmao

It is true, though, that the Jazz lacked a consistent second scoring option. Stockton was very good at controlling the offense, but rarely ever bullish about taking control of the scoring. Only a handful of times, especially in those later years, did he manage to do it - game six against Houston in 1997 and game four against the Bulls later that playoff.

But Seikaly was a consistent scorer - far more consistent than Ostertag. He averaged 15 points while with the Magic that season, though his point total dropped when he was traded to the Nets. That season, Ostertag averaged 4.7 points. Had Seikaly kept his Magic average with the Jazz, he would have been the second leading scorer. As is, the second leading scorer for the Jazz was Horny with 14.2 points.

So, yes, I believe it a was a huge miss. Enough to cost 'em the title? I don't know but the fact I don't know is enough for me to wonder 'what if'...
 
Thee jazz fan said:
And exactly what were the jazz going to get that would’ve put them over Jordan and the bulls. They weren’t going to trade Stockton or Malone, Horny was on his last legs and a bunch of scrub bench players. Most were old or young and not worth ****. So, for a team winning 55+ games why make bi Wholesale changes. Even had we made a trade, it wouldn’t have gotten a chip. It was a veteran team that was just too old with not enough defense or playmaking to overcome the goat
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The Jazz started Keefe, Ostertag, and Foster at least one game in the '98 Finals. Adam Keefe started at center in the NBA Finals. Say that out loud for me, please. I have one memory of the guy, and it was him dunking in some game around '97 and because this was years before HD, I thought for a second it was Hornacek and I lost it.

You figure there was no one we could've signed or traded for who would've been an improvement on Ostertag, Foster, and Keefe put together? Broken down Dino Rađa who was released by the Celtics the summer of '97 but was still good enough to lead both Panathianikos and Olympiakos to Greek League titles as late as 2001. Otis Thorpe who was traded for a first round pick to Vancouver? Cliff Robinson? Bo Outlaw? Anyone but the trio above.
 
It's amazing to me that those jazz teams basically only had Malone as the only guy that could create his shot. Stockton looked to facilitate too much... Horny wasn't great at it. I wonder what other trades were on the table when they traded for Jeff.

Also, as other posters mentioned, wtf were those centers for Utah in the 90s... Tag? Foster?ADAM #$**ING KEAFE?? Felton Spencer? Eaton couldn't outrun a tortoise by 1990... The front office dropped the ball.
 
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l Abach l said:
It's amazing to me that those jazz teams basically only had Malone as the only guy that could create his shot. Stockton looked to facilitate too much... Horny wasn't great at it. I wonder what other trades were on the table when they traded for Jeff.

Also, as other posters mentioned, wtf were those centers for Utah in the 90s... Tag? Foster? Felton Spencer? Eaton couldn't outrun a tortoise by 1990... The front office dropped the ball.
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I remember being elated at the possibility of landing Ike Austin... Ike friggin Austin.

Tag was actually pretty useful just a bit of a dope and we always wanted more out of him.
 
l Abach l said:
Also, as other posters mentioned, wtf were those centers for Utah in the 90s... Tag? Foster? Felton Spencer? Eaton couldn't outrun a tortoise by 1990... The front office dropped the ball.
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Draft was a sore spot, too. I get that the Jazz generally drafted in the 20s after Stock and Malone, but over the course of a decade, there was one serviceable player taken by the Jazz: Russel. Everyone else, including the much-maligned Ostertag, was a net-negative on the floor at best. And then you had ridiculous situations like a Del Curry being drafted by the Jazz and then being traded for something called a Melvin Turpin. It sounds like a weird growth on your rear end. This is a Del Curry who was still able to score 10 a game and lead the league in 3P% in 1999. Plus, if we had kept him for the next 10-15 years, Steph would've had a strong emotional connection to Bountiful or wherever the hell he would've lived.

But yeah, once it was clear Eaton was getting long in tooth, the Jazz drafted Piculin Ortiz, Eric Leckner, and Luther Wright as their centers of the future. Oh, and Ike Austin, whom they would of course cut before he became a decent player. Hell, keep Austin and you've got championships in both '97 and '98.
 
JimLes said:
Draft was a sore spot, too. I get that the Jazz generally drafted in the 20s after Stock and Malone, but over the course of a decade, there was one serviceable player taken by the Jazz: Russel. Everyone else, including the much-maligned Ostertag, was a net-negative on the floor at best. And then you had ridiculous situations like a Del Curry being drafted by the Jazz and then being traded for something called a Melvin Turpin. It sounds like a weird growth on your rear end. This is a Del Curry who was still able to score 10 a game and lead the league in 3P% in 1999. Plus, if we had kept him for the next 10-15 years, Steph would've had a strong emotional connection to Bountiful or wherever the hell he would've lived.

But yeah, once it was clear Eaton was getting long in tooth, the Jazz drafted Piculin Ortiz, Eric Leckner, and Luther Wright as their centers of the future. Oh, and Ike Austin, whom they would of course cut before he became a decent player. Hell, keep Austin and you've got championships in both '97 and '98.
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I was too young to recall the Curry experience with Utah. Why was he traded after one year? Why did he struggles and play infinitely better a year later?

We're there any other options outside of Hornacek?
 
Sean said:
It's really hard to say how Rony Seikaly would have impacted the '98 Jazz. Everyone kind of just assumed their weakness was always at center, and yet, to get to the NBA Finals, the Jazz had to go through Hakeem, Duncan/Robinson and Shaq - only to face the Thorn from Melbourne, Luc Longley lmao

It is true, though, that the Jazz lacked a consistent second scoring option. Stockton was very good at controlling the offense, but rarely ever bullish about taking control of the scoring. Only a handful of times, especially in those later years, did he manage to do it - game six against Houston in 1997 and game four against the Bulls later that playoff.

But Seikaly was a consistent scorer - far more consistent than Ostertag. He averaged 15 points while with the Magic that season, though his point total dropped when he was traded to the Nets. That season, Ostertag averaged 4.7 points. Had Seikaly kept his Magic average with the Jazz, he would have been the second leading scorer. As is, the second leading scorer for the Jazz was Horny with 14.2 points.

So, yes, I believe it a was a huge miss. Enough to cost 'em the title? I don't know but the fact I don't know is enough for me to wonder 'what if'...
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Dude Luc Longley is a dopey hobo from Perth not Melbourne
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
I remember being elated at the possibility of landing Ike Austin... Ike friggin Austin.

Tag was actually pretty useful just a bit of a dope and we always wanted more out of him.
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If Tag had ever taken the game seriously for longer than a quarter at a time he could have been in the discussion of the best centers. He had the tools, and even the instincts, for the most part. He just clowned it all too much. That was so frustrating to watch.
 
l Abach l said:
I was too young to recall the Curry experience with Utah. Why was he traded after one year? Why did he struggles and play infinitely better a year later?

Were there any other options outside of Hornacek?
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I am too young to have seen Curry in a Jazz uniform, but it seems like one of the trades the Jazz loved back in the 80s when they would trade any bench player to get their hands on a decrepit, lumbering big man. One of the people packaged with Curry was one of those big men, too. Kent Benson, former #2 pick, but mostly known for having the daylights knocked out of him by Kareem.

There's a little bit of footage of Curry as a Jazzman on YT. Very little in isolation, like this:

And considering how bad Jeff Malone was as a defender and anything other than a scorer, Hornacek was a steal. Not sure who else but Philly would've given us anything of value for him. I mean, this article from 10 days before the Hornacek trade suggest the Bulls were interested in obtaining Malone in exchange for either Stacey King or Scott Williams. I remember King being a crap player, and Williams played 15 seasons in the NBA according to Wikipedia and I cannot for the love of me remember him as a player. That tells you about the market for Hornacek. And keep in mind that getting Hornacek finally put the Jazz in contention. He was a damn good player.
 
l Abach l said:
It's amazing to me that those jazz teams basically only had Malone as the only guy that could create his shot. Stockton looked to facilitate too much... Horny wasn't great at it. I wonder what other trades were on the table when they traded for Jeff.

Also, as other posters mentioned, wtf were those centers for Utah in the 90s... Tag? Foster? Felton Spencer? Eaton couldn't outrun a tortoise by 1990... The front office dropped the ball.
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I agree. Much is mentioned about Utah having two HOFers in Stockton and Malone but Stockton was never a score-first, or even a score-second PG. Hornacek became Utah's second scoring option when he arrived and as much as I love him, and all he brought to the Jazz (certainly, his arrival was enough to finally get the Jazz out of the West), he wasn't the consistent scoring threat Utah needed to compensate for Malone's fades on the national stage (also another reason the Jazz just plain struggled getting out of the West for so many years).

I mentioned Horny was Utah's second-leading scorer in 1998 at like 14 PPG. For the Bulls, Pippen was averaging nearly 20 points - and Kukoc was just behind Horny at 13.3 PPG. Granted, the NBA was much more low-scoring back then but who'd you rather have as your second scoring threat: Hornacek or Pippen? Horny was our second-best consistent scoring option and he was basically on the same level oas Kukoc.

But some of those 90s teams, like Seattle with Kemp & Payton and Houston with Hakeem & Drexler, had their top-two scorers averaging 20+ PPG.

The last time the 90s Jazz had a second-scorer averaging 20+ points a game was Jeff Malone in 1992. In fact, that was the only season in the 1990s where that happened.

Jazz needed a bigger scoring threat to beat the Bulls. They just couldn't get it with Horny. And worse, when the Jazz got it from Horny, they generally didn't get it from Malone.

In game two of the 1998 NBA Finals, Horny had a helluva game, scoring 20 points on 7/11 shooting - the team's highest scorer. Malone choked, though, finishing with 16 points on 5/16 shooting.

In game three, Malone was the ONLY Jazz player to play well, and even then, he still came in well-below his season average. He finished with 22 points on 8/11 shooting. Horny? Six points on 3/8 shooting. This was, of course, the game where the Jazz had the fewest points in NBA Finals history (err, at least of the shotclock era). Completely abysmal.

In game four, Malone again had an okay night, but again came in below his season average, scoring 21 points on 10/21 shooting. Horny 8 points on 3/8 shooting (again!). The Jazz was more competitive but they eventually lost.

In game five, Malone balled the **** out. He had 39 points and nearly single-handedly staved off elimination. Horny? 9 points on 2/11 shooting. But even Malone's Herculean effort was almost not enough. Antoine Carr was Utah's second-leading scorer ... with twelve. The Jazz escape and push the series back to Salt Lake where...

In game six, Malone again shows up. He has 31 points on 11/19 shooting. Horny finally shows up too - putting in 17 points. But MJ finished with 45. And that's all she wrote.

Game six sucks but I don't fault the Jazz for losing it too much because MJ just had an obscene night. Maybe they should have double-teamed him and let Pippen beat 'em (who was having back problems), but this wasn't an effort loss. The problem isn't that the Jazz lost this game - it's that they lost two winnable games because of effort and pissing away the performances you likely need to win these types of games.

Malone had a horrible game two. Had he put in the same level of success he did in Chicago, the Jazz win that game and this is likely a seven-game series. Maybe the Jazz still lose .. but it doesn't come down to that one game. And had Hornacek actually put in even an effort we expected from him in the regular season, the Jazz maybe win game four to boot. Win game five, and put the Bulls in a position they've never faced in the Finals - the brink of elimination. Maybe, maybe ... Jordan doesn't drop 45. Maybe, just maybe, Stockton, sensing the NBA championship is RIGHT THERE, literally takes over in the final minutes of game six. Maybe...maybe...maybe.

What is known is that Malone was a fantastic player but he's not a top-tener for a reason and it's because he lacked the inability to do what Jordan did in game six. He came close in game five, don't get me wrong, but it wasn't consistent.

Jordan had that unbelievable killer instinct that just decimated so many teams.

Just look at his game six performances in both Finals against the Jazz:

1997: 39
1998: 45

The only other player who I think has touched that is Kobe.

I would have loved to see MJ in a game seven, though, with so much on the line and in a situation he's never been in before (at least at the Finals level).

So, as to not add too much more to this already ridiculously long rant, Malone was not top-flight consistent enough in the NBA playoffs/Finals for the Jazz' second-best scorer to be Horny.
 
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I didn't watch a minute of that MJ produced self adulation. The older I get, the more I hate Michael Jordan. He's a piece of **** who needed the league's help to get past Detroit. After that, he got every advantage the league and refs could give him.

First 3peat, the story was awesome. Intriguing. Then he went to play baseball. Anybody with a brain knows he went to baseball for reasons never disclosed. While he played baseball...

MJ publicly bashed Pippen. Remember, in his career, MJ has a 1-10 playoff record without Pippen. That pissed me off. Chicago was able to add Kukoc for nothing. Imagine Doncic saying he'll only come to the NBA if he can play in LA.

MJ comes back from sucking at baseball and gets every call. Chicago is stacked because they get to have their roster plus Kukoc and Jordan. This is the funniest thing. Chicago was able to pay MJ more than the entire salary cap in 1997-98. The cap was $27, Utah spent $29, MJ made $33+, the rest of the Bulls made around $29. I mean, what the actual ****.

Add all that MJ bias to Utah never making that trade. Ostertag, Eisley, and Russell being key top 6 type guys on a contender? C'mon now. Hornacek guarding MJ or Pippen? C'mon now.

Screw MJ and ESPN's contrived idol worship.

Sent from my VS995 using JazzFanz mobile app
 
LoPo said:
I didn't watch a minute of that MJ produced self adulation. The older I get, the more I hate Michael Jordan. He's a piece of **** who needed the league's help to get past Detroit. After that, he got every advantage the league and refs could give him.

First 3peat, the story was awesome. Intriguing. Then he went to play baseball. Anybody with a brain knows he went to baseball for reasons never disclosed. While he played baseball...

MJ publicly bashed Pippen. Remember, in his career, MJ has a 1-10 playoff record without Pippen. That pissed me off. Chicago was able to add Kukoc for nothing. Imagine Doncic saying he'll only come to the NBA if he can play in LA.

MJ comes back from sucking at baseball and gets every call. Chicago is stacked because they get to have their roster plus Kukoc and Jordan. This is the funniest thing. Chicago was able to pay MJ more than the entire salary cap in 1997-98. The cap was $27, Utah spent $29, MJ made $33+, the rest of the Bulls made around $29. I mean, what the actual ****.

Add all that MJ bias to Utah never making that trade. Ostertag, Eisley, and Russell being key top 6 type guys on a contender? C'mon now. Hornacek guarding MJ or Pippen? C'mon now.

Screw MJ and ESPN's contrived idol worship.

Sent from my VS995 using JazzFanz mobile app
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That sounds real bitter...
 
LoPo said:
I didn't watch a minute of that MJ produced self adulation. The older I get, the more I hate Michael Jordan. He's a piece of **** who needed the league's help to get past Detroit. After that, he got every advantage the league and refs could give him.

First 3peat, the story was awesome. Intriguing. Then he went to play baseball. Anybody with a brain knows he went to baseball for reasons never disclosed. While he played baseball...

MJ publicly bashed Pippen. Remember, in his career, MJ has a 1-10 playoff record without Pippen. That pissed me off. Chicago was able to add Kukoc for nothing. Imagine Doncic saying he'll only come to the NBA if he can play in LA.

MJ comes back from sucking at baseball and gets every call. Chicago is stacked because they get to have their roster plus Kukoc and Jordan. This is the funniest thing. Chicago was able to pay MJ more than the entire salary cap in 1997-98. The cap was $27, Utah spent $29, MJ made $33+, the rest of the Bulls made around $29. I mean, what the actual ****.

Add all that MJ bias to Utah never making that trade. Ostertag, Eisley, and Russell being key top 6 type guys on a contender? C'mon now. Hornacek guarding MJ or Pippen? C'mon now.

Screw MJ and ESPN's contrived idol worship.

Sent from my VS995 using JazzFanz mobile app
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I’m in a similar boat as you. My sports hate for that guy, due to what you mentioned above and also what has been referenced in earlier posts, won’t allow me to be unbiased to determine if I believe he’s the best ever.
I’ve had so many heated discussions about it over the years ie the inexplicable calls and non calls his teams got, the salary cap stuff, the looking the other way about gambling, it goes on and on, but I’m the end if I question who the greatest is my arguments are invalidated because everyone says he is the best. The only other sports individual who comes close to receiving the sports hate I have for this guy is kobe, who I believe received very similar treatment to MJ beginning in his second year.
I own my bitterness and concede that I’m a sore loser, but I won’t watch that documentary because of the negative way it makes me feel. 2020 has really sucked in many ways. FWIW I believe Kareem is the greatest basketball player ever.
 
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