LogGrad98
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I think it is about time we had a discussion centered on socialism. I would like to hear our more conservative voices, such as @Bucknutz and @Douchebag K and others get in on this.
To kick this off, what the hell is socialism, both as feared by the right, and espoused by the left? What is it in academic context? What is it in practice? What are the benefits and detriments of implementing a socialist government? What level of socialism is acceptable?
Here are a few sources to get us started:
en.wikipedia.org
www.britannica.com
I think from this starting point that the state ownership of the means of production is what the conservatives fear most. But that is seldom what people are talking about when socialism is brought up as a boogey-man. Most often they are talking about social welfare programs. We do have some of those in american, in the form of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, unemployment benefits, straight welfare programs, etc. I think most conservatives both do not understand socialism and the difference between straight by the book socialism and social welfare programs that benefit society as a whole. Most european states are not straight socialist states, but they are largely on that spectrum, being primarily social market economies.
As social market economies they follow some principles of socialism, as in most of the infrastructure-related industries are owned by the state, such as electric production, train and public transport systems, general utilities, etc. They also largely provide social safety nets for the populace, such as universal health care, including disability care, retirement income systems (social security), often including long-term care needs, comprehensive unemployment systems, etc. But they are also an open market with high levels of innovation and freedom to produce and sell in the market, following the tenets of basic capitalism, albeit with a much higher level of federal/state regulation.
I think most on the left side of our political spectrum envision something closer to this social market system, as has been shown to be very successful in countries such as the Netherlands and Germany, where they rank many steps above us in most measures of success for developed nations, especially in terms of areas like general healthcare, providing for an aging populace, and general happiness in their societies. For many of these we rank very low, often being beaten out by countries such as Iran. So liberals would prefer we move closer to what they have in Europe, and conservatives want us to move farther to the side of unfettered capitalism.
One sticking point is the impact of taxation in these systems. There are generally higher tax rates to pay for the social services, but much lower out of pocket expenses across the board, most often more than off-setting the higher tax rate. But conservatives push back, trying to imply that any level of taxation is evil and therefore bad, and that America is a boot-strap country. Most liberals believe that this really only applies to the elite in society and that most people need support and can be negatively affected by issues such as a health-crisis that can destroy their lives, or retirement funds that are under-performing or nonexistent since the knowledge on how to build and manage these investment vehicles is not taught and not widespread in our society.
So am I close here? What do you think? I can go on and on, having spent a bit of time in a more socialist country. I know we have other members here who have far more experience than I do in other economic and political systems around the world, such as @Ron Mexico .
I added a poll just for fun. Everyone loves polls. And cheese.
TL;DR - socialism bad or good? you tell us!
To kick this off, what the hell is socialism, both as feared by the right, and espoused by the left? What is it in academic context? What is it in practice? What are the benefits and detriments of implementing a socialist government? What level of socialism is acceptable?
Here are a few sources to get us started:
Socialism - Wikipedia
Britannica Money
Socialism, social and economic doctrine that calls for public rather than private ownership or control of property and natural resources. According to socialism, everything that people produce is in some sense a social product, and everyone who contributes to the production of a good is entitled...
I think from this starting point that the state ownership of the means of production is what the conservatives fear most. But that is seldom what people are talking about when socialism is brought up as a boogey-man. Most often they are talking about social welfare programs. We do have some of those in american, in the form of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, unemployment benefits, straight welfare programs, etc. I think most conservatives both do not understand socialism and the difference between straight by the book socialism and social welfare programs that benefit society as a whole. Most european states are not straight socialist states, but they are largely on that spectrum, being primarily social market economies.
As social market economies they follow some principles of socialism, as in most of the infrastructure-related industries are owned by the state, such as electric production, train and public transport systems, general utilities, etc. They also largely provide social safety nets for the populace, such as universal health care, including disability care, retirement income systems (social security), often including long-term care needs, comprehensive unemployment systems, etc. But they are also an open market with high levels of innovation and freedom to produce and sell in the market, following the tenets of basic capitalism, albeit with a much higher level of federal/state regulation.
I think most on the left side of our political spectrum envision something closer to this social market system, as has been shown to be very successful in countries such as the Netherlands and Germany, where they rank many steps above us in most measures of success for developed nations, especially in terms of areas like general healthcare, providing for an aging populace, and general happiness in their societies. For many of these we rank very low, often being beaten out by countries such as Iran. So liberals would prefer we move closer to what they have in Europe, and conservatives want us to move farther to the side of unfettered capitalism.
One sticking point is the impact of taxation in these systems. There are generally higher tax rates to pay for the social services, but much lower out of pocket expenses across the board, most often more than off-setting the higher tax rate. But conservatives push back, trying to imply that any level of taxation is evil and therefore bad, and that America is a boot-strap country. Most liberals believe that this really only applies to the elite in society and that most people need support and can be negatively affected by issues such as a health-crisis that can destroy their lives, or retirement funds that are under-performing or nonexistent since the knowledge on how to build and manage these investment vehicles is not taught and not widespread in our society.
So am I close here? What do you think? I can go on and on, having spent a bit of time in a more socialist country. I know we have other members here who have far more experience than I do in other economic and political systems around the world, such as @Ron Mexico .
I added a poll just for fun. Everyone loves polls. And cheese.
TL;DR - socialism bad or good? you tell us!
