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Should we be worried about turnover margin?

idiot

Well-Known Member
Though our turnover margin may be the single most important factor in our tanking success this season, is it something to worry about going forward -- either in relation to our current players or in making future acquisitions? I lean toward "no," but just wanted to put some facts out for discussion.
  • Over the past 28 NBA seasons (the amount that is easily extractable from Nba.com stats page), or 862 team-seasons, the worst turnover margin (opponent TO% - own TO%) is held by this season's Jazz.
  • 90% of turnover margins during this period vary between +2.5 and -2.5. We are at -5.6, far above the two next lowest teams (the 17-win 2003 Cavs and the 17-win 2003 Bulls), -4.4 and -4.2.
  • There is a positive correlation between winning percentage and turnover margin, though it's only moderately strong (about 0.33).
  • The best turnover margin (again by more than 1 point) at 6.1 is held by this season's Thunder. In 2021 (with a 3rd year Shai, a 3rd year Kenrich Williams, a 3rd year Svi, and a 2nd year Dort, among a host of forgettable others), they had the 20th worst turnover margin (-3.0) in this 28-year history. They made fairly steady steps over the 4 succeeding seasons to reach this 9-point turnaround.

Is what we have going on this entirely a function of youth/unfamiliarity? Or do concerted efforts need to be made with turnover margin specifically in mind? If so, what can/should we do?
 
Is what we have going on this entirely a function of youth/unfamiliarity? Or do concerted efforts need to be made with turnover margin specifically in mind? If so, what can/should we do?
The Jazz were #1 in turnovers last season, #3 the season before and are #1 now. Hardy's first season pretty much the only young player turning it over was THT and all the others were veterans.

JC's turnovers doubled in Hardy's first season and his highest turnover seasons are the current one and the last two. Lauri's turnovers doubled as well, of course his usage changed massively as well.

Even though he laments it game after game, it's not something Hardy actually cares about enough to fix. He wants his guys to play freely and not worry. Unless he changes that at some point, the Jazz will be a high turnover team under him - and that's pretty much prohibitive to actual winning.

This season not the time to start harping on it anyway though.
 
The Jazz were #1 in turnovers last season, #3 the season before and are #1 now. Hardy's first season pretty much the only young player turning it over was THT and all the others were veterans.

JC's turnovers doubled in Hardy's first season and his highest turnover seasons are the current one and the last two. Lauri's turnovers doubled as well, of course his usage changed massively as well.

Even though he laments it game after game, it's not something Hardy actually cares about enough to fix. He wants his guys to play freely and not worry. Unless he changes that at some point, the Jazz will be a high turnover team under him - and that's pretty much prohibitive to actual winning.

This season not the time to start harping on it anyway though.
Good response.
That's the type of response @idiot was looking for rather than the BS I responded with.

Well done
 
The Jazz were #1 in turnovers last season, #3 the season before and are #1 now. Hardy's first season pretty much the only young player turning it over was THT and all the others were veterans.

JC's turnovers doubled in Hardy's first season and his highest turnover seasons are the current one and the last two. Lauri's turnovers doubled as well, of course his usage changed massively as well.

Even though he laments it game after game, it's not something Hardy actually cares about enough to fix. He wants his guys to play freely and not worry. Unless he changes that at some point, the Jazz will be a high turnover team under him - and that's pretty much prohibitive to actual winning.

This season not the time to start harping on it anyway though.
Even in Quinn's best two seasons, we were bottom 5% for turnover margin (though his Hawks teams are pretty average). So the Jazz have had history with winning despite the turnover issues. In fact 20 of the 28 years that I looked at, we've had a negative turnover differential. Not sure what accounts for it.
 
Good teams have the lowest TO%, bad teams - the highest. The top3 teams with the lowest one are Oklahoma, Boston, and Cleveland. Utah is a bad team now.
 
Short answer - No

Long answer

I'll start by saying two things about turnover margin:

1) Turnovers (both forcing and conceding) are a product of performance but maybe more importantly a product of playstyle choices. A team can always perform better with the system they choose, but different strategies will naturally lead to more or less turnovers. So while a higher turnover margin is always better within the same strategy, it's not necessarily better when considering different strategies. For example, a very conservative defensive team who also uses a ton of ball movement (higher potential for turnovers) could be 20th in turnover margin.....but they are not necessarily worse than a team who might be 10th in turnover margin but instead of a conservative defense they play more aggressive looking for turnovers and on offense they don't move the ball, shoot quickly, etc. I think this is proven by the weak correlation to winning. Even though more positive margin is strictly better than less in a vacuum, there isn't a strong correlation because teams are making tradeoffs with the way to play that evens it out.

Side note, I'm glad we can safely use correlations in discussions lol.

2) I think offensive turnovers and defensive turnovers are mutually exclusive for the most part. While I don't think turnover margin is completely useless, it does kind of give into the idea that a team's turnovers can be made up for by forcing turnovers. In reality, I think the tradeoff is different. If there are more/less turnovers on a given side of the ball, I think the tradeoff you'll see is actually in the shooting efficiency. So I'd rather look at the turnover thing as two distinct entities than....it's really not too different than looking at offense and defense as a whole as two different things.

How does this apply to the Jazz?

Defensively, yes I think it's concern that we don't force turnovers, but I'd say our defense has been so bad over the years that pretty much everything is a concern. I'd say that with a big like Walker Kessler, that lends itself to a more conservative system....Let Kessler be a super man defender at the rim and everyone else stay home, just like we did with Gobert. So in that sense, I don't think a conservative strategey is bad....but I do question Hardy's ability as a defensive coach in general. We've had no success and he's openly said it has not been a focus of his in the past. When you're consistently hitting last place it's probably not the result of smart strategy tradeoffs, it's poor performance and probably poor system. I don't think we have great structure on defense and I also think we perform poorly, so yeah....concerned with most aspects of the defense even if a low forced turnover rate is not necessarily bad.

Offensively, I'm not really worried long term. Hardy has proven to have success despite a high turnover system. In his first year hear, we were 4th in offense despite being 25th in TOV rate. To be fair, offensive rebounding was carrying our offensive rating, but still I think this proves that we can have a good offense with the way Hardy likes to play. I think his system lends itself to "killer passes" which is why someone like Lauri has really succeeded, but throwing those dagger passes also naturally leads to more turnovers. I think we both play a style that leads to more turnovers (which is fine) and have poor talent (which hopefully will get better over time)....so I think this problem will resolve itself and I have confidence in Hardy to produce a good offense with reasonable talent. Success will probably look like us being 20th in turnover rate instead of 30th.
 
Short answer - No

Long answer

I'll start by saying two things about turnover margin:

1) Turnovers (both forcing and conceding) are a product of performance but maybe more importantly a product of playstyle choices. A team can always perform better with the system they choose, but different strategies will naturally lead to more or less turnovers. So while a higher turnover margin is always better within the same strategy, it's not necessarily better when considering different strategies. For example, a very conservative defensive team who also uses a ton of ball movement (higher potential for turnovers) could be 20th in turnover margin.....but they are not necessarily worse than a team who might be 10th in turnover margin but instead of a conservative defense they play more aggressive looking for turnovers and on offense they don't move the ball, shoot quickly, etc. I think this is proven by the weak correlation to winning. Even though more positive margin is strictly better than less in a vacuum, there isn't a strong correlation because teams are making tradeoffs with the way to play that evens it out.

Side note, I'm glad we can safely use correlations in discussions lol.

2) I think offensive turnovers and defensive turnovers are mutually exclusive for the most part. While I don't think turnover margin is completely useless, it does kind of give into the idea that a team's turnovers can be made up for by forcing turnovers. In reality, I think the tradeoff is different. If there are more/less turnovers on a given side of the ball, I think the tradeoff you'll see is actually in the shooting efficiency. So I'd rather look at the turnover thing as two distinct entities than....it's really not too different than looking at offense and defense as a whole as two different things.

How does this apply to the Jazz?

Defensively, yes I think it's concern that we don't force turnovers, but I'd say our defense has been so bad over the years that pretty much everything is a concern. I'd say that with a big like Walker Kessler, that lends itself to a more conservative system....Let Kessler be a super man defender at the rim and everyone else stay home, just like we did with Gobert. So in that sense, I don't think a conservative strategey is bad....but I do question Hardy's ability as a defensive coach in general. We've had no success and he's openly said it has not been a focus of his in the past. When you're consistently hitting last place it's probably not the result of smart strategy tradeoffs, it's poor performance and probably poor system. I don't think we have great structure on defense and I also think we perform poorly, so yeah....concerned with most aspects of the defense even if a low forced turnover rate is not necessarily bad.

Offensively, I'm not really worried long term. Hardy has proven to have success despite a high turnover system. In his first year hear, we were 4th in offense despite being 25th in TOV rate. To be fair, offensive rebounding was carrying our offensive rating, but still I think this proves that we can have a good offense with the way Hardy likes to play. I think his system lends itself to "killer passes" which is why someone like Lauri has really succeeded, but throwing those dagger passes also naturally leads to more turnovers. I think we both play a style that leads to more turnovers (which is fine) and have poor talent (which hopefully will get better over time)....so I think this problem will resolve itself and I have confidence in Hardy to produce a good offense with reasonable talent. Success will probably look like us being 20th in turnover rate instead of 30th.
Nicely stated.

The one thing I might add is to ask about the relationship between offensive turnovers and overall defensive effectiveness. If we weren't far and away the worst team at committing turnovers, would our defense be more middle-of-the pack?
 
Nicely stated.

The one thing I might add is to ask about the relationship between offensive turnovers and overall defensive effectiveness. If we weren't far and away the worst team at committing turnovers, would our defense be more middle-of-the pack?

It's a good question, here are some things that you might consider on that front:

About 55% of the Jazz turnovers are live ball turnovers. Conventional wisdom would say that live ball turnovers lead to worse defense and a dead ball turnover would actually improve defense compared to a miss and rebound (though I would obviously not advocate for more dead ball turnovers for better defense).

The Jazz lead the league in dead ball turnovers at 7.68 per100, the average would be 6.25 and league low is 5.05. So as a result of live ball turnovers, the Jazz concede about 1.43 possessions with extra efficiency compared to the average and 2.63 more than the lowest team

To give you an idea of the extra efficiency, the Jazz concede 93.7 points per play (does not count putbacks) in the half court and 125 points per play in transition. This discrepancy is not abnormal from league norms.

The Jazz are estimated at giving up an extra 1.9 points per100 due to transition created by their opponent steals. This ranks 17th in the league. League average is 1.8, league best is 0.7.

This offensive turnovers -> bad defense effect is also mirrored in forcing turnovers -> better offense.

All stats from pbpstats and cleaningtheglass
 
Why be worried I thought we wanted losses. This is fan-damn-tastic. We have a combo guard in his second year that until recently was our starting pg who never played the position till he got here, then turned the reigns over to an actual rookie and this is one of the youngest teams in the league?
 
TO's are always direct correlated with teams who pass more and have less 1 on 1 players. If the Jazz's main offensive creation is going to be Collier driving and creating, you are going to live with a lot of turnovers, especially with how daring Collier is with his passing. It's a positive thing tbh because you want your young players to push the envelope of what they are capable of.
 
Jazz are letting their young players like Collier and Keyonte have a long leash to try and make plays. The Jazz are letting them brick shots and turn the ball over in support of their long-term development. Heck, they're letting Svi handle the ball and try to create. Jazz are being very permissive of turnovers.

It'll come down to whether players are comfortable and suited to the role they're being asked to play.
 
So a year ago, the Jazz were playing Kris Dunn, THT, Darius Bazley, Kenny Lofton, Luka Samanic and Omer Yurtseven. I'm pretty sure the Jazz didn't care about their turnover margin then, and they likely don't care about it now either.
 
TO's are always direct correlated with teams who pass more and have less 1 on 1 players. If the Jazz's main offensive creation is going to be Collier driving and creating, you are going to live with a lot of turnovers, especially with how daring Collier is with his passing. It's a positive thing tbh because you want your young players to push the envelope of what they are capable of.

Collier's turnovers I'm more than happy to live with. Not so much lazy pass turnovers Key and Clarkson sometimes get plagued with. Clarkson will take care of itself as his contract ages out, and Key seems to be upping his passing game lately, so we'll see how it plays out. The other glaring ones to me are when Collins makes a run to the basket 1 on 4 and loses the ball or get blocked. He's been playing a lot better lately, but he can't seem to pass back out in that situation to save his life...
 
So a year ago, the Jazz were playing Kris Dunn, THT, Darius Bazley, Kenny Lofton, Luka Samanic and Omer Yurtseven. I'm pretty sure the Jazz didn't care about their turnover margin then, and they likely don't care about it now either.
And two years ago the Jazz were playing Mike Conley, Kelly Olynyk, Lauri Markkanen, Walker Kessler, Jordan Clarkson, Collin Sexton and Malik Beasley - and didn't care about turnovers. At which point would it be clear that Hardy doesn't care about turnovers at all - regardless of the situation and players?
 
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