Jackpotting Around - It's Just One Game... But...

KqWIN said:

I unironically think Brice would be a better player if he was selfish. I think he gets himself into trouble when he’s trying to make decisions and especially the decision to pass/score off the dribble. He’s like 21 so we can give him some more time to figure it out, but the best version of Brice might be the one that only shoots/attacks closeouts to score. He has scoring chops beyond shooting.

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Yeah I would have him with an ultra green light on threes... test the upper limits on what he can get up. Then when they are overplaying it the other stuff might really blossom.

Especially early in the season with this new high five rule. These high volume guys might be drawing one of those fouls per night while the refs are on high alert. Or defenders may adjust and not contest as hard.

Handlogten's Heros said:

Yeah I would have him with an ultra green light on threes... test the upper limits on what he can get up. Then when they are overplaying it the other stuff might really blossom.

Especially early in the season with this new high five rule. These high volume guys might be drawing one of those fouls per night while the refs are on high alert. Or defenders may adjust and not contest as hard.

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What is new high five rule please?

slc said:

What is new high five rule please?

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No hitting the hand of the shooter after release.

View: https://x.com/UsherNBA/status/1978064073557197150


Not belaboring the point here. Just showing kind of what I am seeing with Brice. Some of these aren't threes he was forcing up last year and he's making a fair amount. I think he and the coach (based on the comments) get it and know how they want to use his tool.

Handlogten's Heros said:

View: https://x.com/UsherNBA/status/1978064073557197150


Not belaboring the point here. Just showing kind of what I am seeing with Brice. Some of these aren't threes he was forcing up last year and he's making a fair amount. I think he and the coach (based on the comments) get it and know how they want to use his tool.

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Like 80% of those 3s are nothing but net. Very satisfying to watch.

Handlogten's Heros said:

View: https://x.com/UsherNBA/status/1978064073557197150


Not belaboring the point here. Just showing kind of what I am seeing with Brice. Some of these aren't threes he was forcing up last year and he's making a fair amount. I think he and the coach (based on the comments) get it and know how they want to use his tool.

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I haven’t allowed myself to consider the following at all until right now, but… what if he’s one of THE dudes and we don’t actually have to tank cuz maybe we already have two…?

(To be clear, I am still team tank, but if Brice and Ace are seriously cooking I could back away from the cliff if the Jazz are .500+ to start the season. I am sure I’m getting ahead of myself but often times such developments do seem to occur rather suddenly.)

NUMBERICA said:

I haven’t allowed myself to consider the following at all until right now, but… what if he’s one of THE dudes and we don’t actually have to tank cuz maybe we already have two…?

(To be clear, I am still team tank, but if Brice and Ace are seriously cooking I could back away from the cliff if the Jazz are .500+ to start the season. I am sure I’m getting ahead of myself but often times such developments do seem to occur rather suddenly.)

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Until Brice demonstrates improved defense, then we can't expect an overall impact much greater than peak Malik Beasley.

NAOS_pt2 said:

Until Brice demonstrates improved defense, then we can't expect an overall impact much greater than peak Malik Beasley.

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I mean, Malik Beasley without the, umm, “legal” issues and built like a tank and knows how to get to the line is pretty great even without the defense.

To be clear, I want the defense. I am probably historically the biggest Brice hater along those lines, but…

NUMBERICA said:

I mean, Malik Beasley without the, umm, “legal” issues and built like a tank and knows how to get to the line is pretty great even without the defense.

To be clear, I want the defense. I am probably historically the biggest Brice hater along those lines, but…

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I've always thought we nailed the Brice pick. And I've been patient and hopeful for the year-3 jump that appears to be upon us. But the defense has been much worse than I anticipated.

I really hope he figures something out, because it's otherwise looking like he could be an incredible weapon.

It's an interesting theoretical question. At what point is a player's offense so good that you figure out how to work around their defensive limitations.

We've seen this summer that the value of extremely high level offensive guards, that are limited defensively, have very limited value right now. Then you have previous and current MVP candidates with similar defensive issues. It feels like the offensive bar to hit is extremely high...

Thoughts?

SoberasHotRod said:

It's an interesting theoretical question. At what point is a player's offense so good that you figure out how to work around their defensive limitations.

We've seen this summer that the value of extremely high level offensive guards, that are limited defensively, have very limited value right now. Then you have previous and current MVP candidates with similar defensive issues. It feels like the offensive bar to hit is extremely high...

Thoughts?

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Depends on how limited. I think the issue with the guards traded this summer is a lot want to be ball in hand and are good shooters (though Simons is excellent). If the guy can go offball like Brice and that is actually where he is most valuable... I see no reason they can't be a starter level player.

His defense is improving imo. I think you can live with him getting to below average.

Handlogten's Heros said:

Depends on how limited. I think the issue with the guards traded this summer is a lot want to be ball in hand and are good shooters (though Simons is excellent). If the guy can go offball like Brice and that is actually where he is most valuable... I see no reason they can't be a starter level player.

His defense is improving imo. I think you can live with him getting to below average.

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Yeah, it's interesting. Here's a good list to look at for comps: GP>40, 3PG%>37, 3PFGA/100POS> 11.


Isaiah Joe for example is similar in counting stats per 100 possessions as Brice, but I would argue Isaiah Joe is a much better defensive player currently, but probably something that Brice could aspire to. Isaiah Joe is a slightly below MLE player that played 8mpg in the finals. So if Brice stays at his current offensive production, and increases his defense to below average then that would be his value.

Tyler Herro is kind of the other direction. Can Brice get to Tyler Herro levels of offensive production and be a 30 million/yr player. He would have to dramatically increase his shot attempts and free throw attempts, but that seems plausible based on preseason. The only thing that seems unlikely is that he would need to improve as a player maker (Herro averages over 2X the assists). I don't know how much better Herro is as a defensive player, but it feels like Brice can definitely get to that level.

So yeah, I think Herro is a good bench mark for how good Brice needs to be offensively to be a starting level player on a good team with below average defense.

Udidthizz said:

Like 80% of those 3s are nothing but net. Very satisfying to watch.

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One of his swishes from last night's game was the loudest swish I have ever heard. Perfection.

Handlogten's Heros said:

Depends on how limited. I think the issue with the guards traded this summer is a lot want to be ball in hand and are good shooters (though Simons is excellent). If the guy can go offball like Brice and that is actually where he is most valuable... I see no reason they can't be a starter level player.

His defense is improving imo. I think you can live with him getting to below average.

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It's really hard to tell defensively with any of the guys because the whole is so bad defensively. We really need some defensive focused vets next year to see which parts of the roster are the ones contributing to these terrible defensive ratings.

HadAnEffectHere said:

It's really hard to tell defensively with any of the guys because the whole is so bad defensively. We really need some defensive focused vets next year to see which parts of the roster are the ones contributing to these terrible defensive ratings.

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Bad shooting percentage and bad rebounding can send a team's defensive rating to the bottom. For example a team composed of Bricky McBrickys generally will shoot and miss and if they shoot, miss and don't grab the rebound it's off to the races for the other team and a high percentage shot. Generally speaking it is easier to play D if the other team is walking the ball up the court rather than on 3-1 fast break.

homeytennis said:

Bad shooting percentage and bad rebounding can send a team's defensive rating to the bottom. For example a team composed of Bricky McBrickys generally will shoot and miss and if they shoot, miss and don't grab the rebound it's off to the races for the other team and a high percentage shot. Generally speaking it is easier to play D if the other team is walking the ball up the court rather than on 3-1 fast break.

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Meh, the Jazz's offense hasn't been horrible. We were 17th in offense two years ago and despite that, were still 30th in defense.

Last year, Keyonte, Brice, Sexton, and Cody Williams played like four of the worst defenders in the NBA. Sexton is gone, we'll see how the other guys step up on defense (if at all)

HadAnEffectHere said:

It's really hard to tell defensively with any of the guys because the whole is so bad defensively. We really need some defensive focused vets next year to see which parts of the roster are the ones contributing to these terrible defensive ratings.

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I think his effort is better and he seems to be more dialed in... there were times last year where the effort was pretty bad and he seemed to have no idea where to be... maybe he didn't care.

In general, the Jazz young guys seem to try on ball but there is so much ball watching and little care on the glass. But yeah to your overall point... its really hard to tell. I would just avoid the loud bad defensive plays and always hustle back if I was Brice. He has a tendency to slouch and while it may not matter it does jump out on the screen.

I’ll just put this here. Cody may not be the talentless bum I thought he was. There’s something there after all. He’s got a lot he still needs to show and overcome and if he does he’ll have a 10+ year career in the league.