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Muslims, Political Correctness, and the Juan Williams saga

Here's the problem I'm trying to address:

Williams, in the course of being a strong advocate of refusing to stereotype muslims, "admits" that he personally feels some anxiety on airplanes if he sees "muslim garb." He claims that this is "honest" and "true," and that he discloses such things in the interest of keeping an open dialogue about the problems. This admission was preceded by the comment that he agreed with O'Reilly that "political correctness" should not be used to stifle truth, honestly, and open discussion.

In response CAIR goes wild, calling for immediate action against him, which they got. There are reputable muslim groups in this county who adamantly oppose the agenda and tactics of CAIR. A representative of one of them appeared on Fox with Williams and thanked him for his comments and his honesty. In short, CAIR don't speak for all muslims either.

The charge is that CAIR is attempting to terminate discussion, not promote it, and that ideas of "political correctness" can exacerbate the problems by refusing to accept honest statements in public dialogue.
 
By the way Eric, NPR published it's story at around 8:00 a.m est, it says. It keeps an "update page" which shows Williams' appearance with O'Rielly on Fox to have occured about 12 hours later, i.e, after 8 p.m. est. The ombudsman says the crap really started hittin the fan, but that it's email "crashed" around noon (presumably est, I dunno) that day. And she talks only about that day (thursday) not that "night."

She explicitly says this: "NPR’s initial story garnered more than 6,800 comments, many supporting Williams..." [The responses were to their own story, by her account.] As noted, she also says this: "The overwhelming majority are angry, furious, outraged. They want NPR to hire him back immediately. If NPR doesn't, they want all public funding of public radio to stop. They promise to never donate again. They are as mad as hell, and want everyone to know it. It was daunting to answer the phone and hear so much unrestrained anger."

This all seems contrary to you assumption that the responses to NPR were orchestrated by, or inspired by, O'Reilly's comments on his "factor" program.
 
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As far as my opinion about what NPR did, I say they done got played by a very small, ideologically-driven special interest group (CAIR) and ignored the mainstream wishes with respect to Williams.

Here's a website I've never visited before, but the guy sounds neutral enough. He's says Williams comments make him "uncomfortable," and that his remarks contain a strong hint of intolerance (although he doesn't think Williams should have been fired). He does conclude that NPR's decision to fire Williams was a "disaster," however.

The site says this about the author "He also hosts CNN's weekly media program "Reliable Sources," Sundays at 11 am ET. The longtime media reporter and columnist for The Washington Post, Kurtz is the author of five books," and I'm assuming he doesn't just attract ideologues as readers.

There is a poll at this site where over 8,000 readers voted on the questiion of whether Williams should have been fired. Results? 88% say no, 3% undecided, 9% say yes.

The intro reads as follows:

NPR's Juan Williams Disaster


His firing has backfired, handing Fox a victory and making Williams a symbol of liberal intolerance—on the very day NPR announced a grant from George Soros that it never should have accepted.

After watching Bill O’Reilly lead an hour of NPR-bashing on Fox News Thursday night, it’s tempting to say that the right’s reaction to the Juan Williams firing is just a tad overblown.

But it’s not. This was a blunder of enormous proportions. Even many liberals—Donna Brazile, Joan Walsh, Whoopi Goldberg—are castigating National Public Radio for throwing Williams overboard.

NPR Chief Executive Vivian Schiller—dubbed a “pinhead” by O’Reilly—made matters worse by suggesting that Williams needs psychiatric attention.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-10-21/nprs-juan-williams-disaster/2/
 
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Serious question, why does Bill O'Reilly and Glenn Beck on every one of their shows talk about George Soros? What's so important about this guy? Is a governor from some backwards state that the GOP is trying to recruit to run as VP in 2012? Seriously, why is foxnews and am radio talking about him all the time? And it's not like I take in a lot of that kind of media. So even in my few experiences with foxnews and am radio, I'm hearing about George Soros. Just imagine if I was a real all day listener!

Can anyone explain to me why conservative radio is obsessed with this guy?
 
The Thriller said:
Serious question, why does Bill O'Reilly and Glenn Beck on every one of their shows talk about George Soros? What's so important about this guy? Is a governor from some backwards state that the GOP is trying to recruit to run as VP in 2012? Seriously, why is foxnews and am radio talking about him all the time? And it's not like I take in a lot of that kind of media. So even in my few experiences with foxnews and am radio, I'm hearing about George Soros. Just imagine if I was a real all day listener!

Can anyone explain to me why conservative radio is obsessed with this guy?
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Here's one (negative) take on Soros, eh, Thriller?:

https://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/14700
 
This from a heavily-foot-noted article in the "Mid East Quarterly":

"The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), headquartered in Washington, is perhaps the best-known and most controversial Muslim organization in North America. CAIR presents itself as an advocate for Muslims' civil rights and the spokesman for American Muslims. "We are similar to a Muslim NAACP," says its communications director, Ibrahim Hooper.[1] Its official mission—"to enhance understanding of Islam, encourage dialogue, protect civil liberties, empower American Muslims, and build coalitions that promote justice and mutual understanding"[2]—suggests nothing problematic...

But there is another side to CAIR that has alarmed many people in positions to know. The Department of Homeland Security refuses to deal with it. Senator Charles Schumer (Democrat, New York) describes it as an organization "which we know has ties to terrorism."[3] Senator Dick Durbin (Democrat, Illinois) observes that CAIR is "unusual in its extreme rhetoric and its associations with groups that are suspect."[4] Steven Pomerantz, the FBI's former chief of counterterrorism, notes that "CAIR, its leaders, and its activities effectively give aid to international terrorist groups."[5] The family of John P. O'Neill, Sr., the former FBI counterterrorism chief who perished at the World Trade Center, named CAIR in a lawsuit as having "been part of the criminal conspiracy of radical Islamic terrorism"[6] responsible for the September 11 atrocities. Counterterrorism expert Steven Emerson calls it "a radical fundamentalist front group for Hamas."[7]"


Is this the outfit that should set the tone and parameters for discussion about terrorism and it's connections to radical muslim extremists, ya figure? A lotta muslims don't seem to think so:


"Of particular note are the American Muslims who reject CAIR's claim to speak on their behalf. The late Seifeldin Ashmawy, publisher of the New Jersey-based Voice of Peace, called CAIR the champion of "extremists whose views do not represent Islam."[8] Jamal Hasan of the Council for Democracy and Tolerance explains that CAIR's goal is to spread "Islamic hegemony the world over by hook or by crook."[9] Kamal Nawash, head of Free Muslims Against Terrorism, finds that CAIR and similar groups condemn terrorism on the surface while endorsing an ideology that helps foster extremism, adding that "almost all of their members are theocratic Muslims who reject secularism and want to establish Islamic states."[10] Tashbih Sayyed of the Council for Democracy and Tolerance calls CAIR "the most accomplished fifth column" in the United States.[11] And Stephen Schwartz of the Center on Islamic Pluralism writes that "CAIR should be considered a foreign-based subversive organization, comparable in the Islamist field to the Soviet-controlled Communist Party, USA."[12]"

https://www.meforum.org/916/cair-islamists-fooling-the-establishment
 
Hopper said:
In response CAIR goes wild, calling for immediate action against him, which they got.
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Here's what's missing: a link between the calls by CAIR and the actions by NPR. Why would NPR worry about CAIR's opinions?

Hopper said:
This all seems contrary to you assumption that the responses to NPR were orchestrated by, or inspired by, O'Reilly's comments on his "factor" program.
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I don't believe I attributed that to O'Reilly, or even Fox News, specifically. However, they do have the largest audience among the players, and the news segments were running well before Wiliams appearance on O'Reilly.

Hopper said:
As far as my opinion about what NPR did, I say they done got played by a very small, ideologically-driven special interest group (CAIR) and ignored the mainstream wishes with respect to Williams.
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Again, where is the evidence that CAIR influence NPR?

Hopper said:
But it’s not. This was a blunder of enormous proportions. Even many liberals—Donna Brazile, Joan Walsh, Whoopi Goldberg—are castigating National Public Radio for throwing Williams overboard.
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Why is it "Even many liberrals"? Why would liberals be more likely to support an NPR action? Is NPR supposed to care more about what liberals think than conservatives?

Hopper said:
NPR Chief Executive Vivian Schiller—dubbed a “pinhead” by O’Reilly—made matters worse by suggesting that Williams needs psychiatric attention.
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We both know that's not what she actually said.
 
this is so very allegorical...


Hopper said:
...The charge is that CAIR is attempting to terminate discussion, not promote it, and that ideas of "political correctness" can exacerbate the problems by refusing to accept honest statements in public dialogue.
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Is your issue with CAIR or with NPR? I'm not sure anymore, you seemed to be directing your earlier comments against NPR's actions in the firing, but now it seems you're more concerned with CAIR's actions.

At any rate, setting CAIR, NPR, Juan Williams and all these related issues aside, I'll agree that in general ideas of "political correctness" can exacerbate the problems that arise in any dialogue involving sensitive issues. However, there is almost always a way to make a statement that conveys an "unpopular" idea without resorting to "politically incorrect" language.

and context counts...
 
One Brow said:
Why would NPR worry about CAIR's opinions?
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They shouldn't. But ax Kicky. He's seems to suggest that "complaints" by listeners (without even qualifying his statement to consider the nature or content of the complaint or the identity of the complainer) are determinative of what NPR should do.


One Brow said:
I don't believe I attributed that to O'Reilly, or even Fox News, specifically. However, they do have the largest audience among the players, and the news segments were running well before Wiliams appearance on O'Reilly.
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You seemed to blame it on a "angry segment," Eric. Certainly the Fox News report (as opposed to the opinionated "Factor" segment which O'Reilly presides over) was not an "angry" segment. The first to run the story was presumably NPR (who Fox News quoted) in any event, and the ombudsman said the e-mail reponses were from THAT news story and were generated off of NPR's own website.



One Brow said:
Again, where is the evidence that CAIR influence NPR?
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More on that later, although it was mentioned in the first vid I posted



One Brow said:
Why is it "Even many liberrals"? Why would liberals be more likely to support an NPR action? Is NPR supposed to care more about what liberals think than conservatives?
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Yes, they are. "Supposed" in the sense that that is how they are generally perceived by their own audience, by others who don't listen regularly, and by impartial "analysts" of the media. But not "supposed" in the sense of "should," of course.




One Brow said:
We both know that's not what she actually said.
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We both know what she said, Eric, and it seems obvious to all I've seen comment (except you) just what she was trying to insinuate, which is presumably why she apologized. If you want to cling to your denial of the innuendo, help yourself. I'm not gunna debate you about it for 4 pages.
 
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moevillini said:
this is so very allegorical...




Is your issue with CAIR or with NPR? I'm not sure anymore, you seemed to be directing your earlier comments against NPR's actions in the firing, but now it seems you're more concerned with CAIR's actions.

At any rate, setting CAIR, NPR, Juan Williams and all these related issues aside, I'll agree that in general ideas of "political correctness" can exacerbate the problems that arise in any dialogue involving sensitive issues. However, there is almost always a way to make a statement that conveys an "unpopular" idea without resorting to "politically incorrect" language.

and context counts...
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How about "politically incorrect" thoughts, Mo? "Politically incorrect" feelings? Politically incorrect psychological states which people might subjectively and casually impute to you, such as "bigotry?"

Mo, did you watch any of the vids I posted? Did you watch theone (a link to a vid, not embedded) which included the "context" (which NPR omitted) within which Williams made his "objectionable" comments?
 
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Hopper said:
moevillini said:
...At any rate, setting CAIR, NPR, Juan Williams and all these related issues aside, I'll agree that in general ideas of "political correctness" can exacerbate the problems that arise in any dialogue involving sensitive issues. However, there is almost always a way to make a statement that conveys an "unpopular" idea without resorting to "politically incorrect" language.

and context counts...
Click to expand...

How about "politically incorrect" thoughts, Mo? "Politically incorrect" feelings? Politically incorrect psychological states which people might subjectively and casually impute to you, such as "bigotry?"

Mo, did you watch any of the vids I posted? Did you watch theone (a link to a vid, not embedded) which included the "context" (which NPR omitted) within which Williams made his "objectionable" comments?
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I did, but as I wrote, I'm setting aside the issues related to Juan Williams, CAIR, NPR etc. as I'm not sure that's really where you want to go with this discussion. At any rate, Juan Williams was taking his chances. O'Reilly doesn't let anyone complete a sentence that doesn't validate the direction he wants to steer the conversation.


And I'm not a mind reader. I can't evaluate thoughts, feelings or psychological states.
 
If a white commentator had said "it makes really uncomfortable when a bunch of young black males in saggy jeans and tattoos walks in to a grocery store, because you know they might rob the place" he'd appropriately be condemned for saying something bigoted. I really don't get why it becomes okay to say something like that about Muslims.

*I didn't read the whole thread, don't know if anyone else made this point already.
 
DeliveryBoy said:
If a white commentator had said "it makes really uncomfortable when a bunch of young black males in saggy jeans and tattoos walks in to a grocery store, because you know they might rob the place" he'd appropriately be condemned for saying something bigoted. I really don't get why it becomes okay to say something like that about Muslims.

*I didn't read the whole thread, don't know if anyone else made this point already.
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Well, if a black guy in the deep south sees a bunch of white guys with bad hygiene, bald head, and sheets, he shouldn't stick around to find out if they're cancer patients. /Chris Rock

(or something like that.)
 
moevillini said:
I did, but as I wrote, I'm setting aside the issues related to Juan Williams, CAIR, NPR etc. as I'm not sure that's really where you want to go with this discussion. At any rate, Juan Williams was taking his chances. O'Reilly doesn't let anyone complete a sentence that doesn't validate the direction he wants to steer the conversation.
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One reason I ax, Mo, is that I understood you to say that Williams' (probably out of context) remarks struck you as "racist." Still feel that way, after watchin the vids?


moevillini said:
And I'm not a mind reader. I can't evaluate thoughts, feelings or psychological states.
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Well, you can evaluate whether thoughts (if expressed), feelins (if expressed), and presumed psychological states comply with the requirements of political correctness, caincha?
 
C l u t c H 385 said:
Well, if a black guy in the deep south sees a bunch of white guys with bad hygiene, bald head, and sheets, he shouldn't stick around to find out if they're cancer patients. /Chris Rock

(or something like that.)
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"If I'm walkin the streets late at night and I hear loud footsteps behind me, I git worried. If I look behind me and see it's a white guy, I'm relieved" (Chris Rock, or some black comedian, I mighta forgot just who)
 
Hopper said:
"If I'm walkin the streets late at night and I hear loud footsteps behind me, I git worried. If I look behind me and see it's a white guy, I'm relieved" (Chris Rock, or some black comedian, I mighta forgot just who)
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what a bigot, probably a homophobe too, eh Hoppy?
 
moevillini said:
O'Reilly doesn't let anyone complete a sentence that doesn't validate the direction he wants to steer the conversation.
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Ya think, Mo? Is that some kinda bigotry against O'Reilly, I wonder? I'm sure I've seen him let people who's opinion he despised (and/or disagreed with) complete their sentences and elucidate the exact nature of their thoughts on his show many, many times.

I could be wrong, I spoze, but....
 
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