A MASSIVE recap of aa BUNCH of threads consolidated into one

[ONE LOVE]

Burke's shot seems really flat though.. not sure why that is.. is he rushing it? is it nerve?

He definitely needs to play more under these conditions definitely to get better... he shot so well in College it's hard to believe he would miss so many here in SL.

Also don't forget, it took Kemba a couple of years before he's finally playing up to the NBA level.

 

[gregbroncs]

Trey Burke's assist to turnover ration is still good. He got a decent amount of rebounds (I wish he had more steals). The only thing he did bad was shoot the ball and according to the "law of averages" he should eventually get out of this funk and shoot about the same percent he did in college. Granted I am saying all this and I didn't watch the games.

Not that I believe it. But Mo Almond never did. He was just not athletic enough or had a quick enough release for the NBA. Just because a guy can shoot in college does not mean it will carry over the NBA, against far superior athletes. Now the games I saw in SL Burke had good looks that just did not go in. So hopefully you are 100% correct. Just pointing out that the law of averages does not always apply when put up against better competition.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

I can't take anyone seriously that is bashing Burke. The only reason we're even talking about it is because we wanted to keep riding the high of getting him, and all those missed shots kinda killed the buzz.

But to try and take anything that happened in three sloppy summer league games and use it as a counterpoint to everything he's excelled at his whole career... it demonstrates a complete failure of analytic thought, and it makes you look ridiculous.

Wait for more data, and, more importantly, wait for that data to come from games that even remotely resemble what Burke's experience in the NBA will be like when he's calmed down and confident.

Dude... You need to post more here. 100% agree

I posted this is another thread:




Same thing goes for Biedrens. We all take for granted that he sucks and assume he'll play spot minutes. Not so. As a guy who once averaged a double double, Ty Corbin will see him as a guy who's proved himself in the league and has the experience (see: years in league) to prove it. Ty knows he can't keep both Favors and Kanter on the bench. But just because he can't keep both of them on the bench doesn't mean both of them will start. Biedrens is a very real starting possibility.

don't agree with any of this. Lindsey has pretty much already said the plan is to play the young guys and and see what they can do. My thinking is that Manegement has already taken all pressure off Ty. Ty is probably coming into the season knowing his job is safe regardless of how bad the record is.

im worried about his first step and dribble opposing players dont seem to respect them much, and his free throw attempts compared to his fg attempts leaves me wondering

is trey burke going to lead the jazz in FGA's???

you really think he will shoot as much in the regular season. I don't.

is Trey Burkes goto move still a step back jumper?

Edit: this is the question no one wants to answer

we haven't been able to see his full array of moves due to the talent around him and sloppy pickup ball play. Watch his collage tapes

ABPG has been out of it lately.

lately?? Try since he's been here.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

is Trey Burkes goto move still a step back jumper?

Edit: this is the question no one wants to answer

FWIW, that was Allen Iverson's go-to move, it's Chris Paul's go-to move and it's also DWill's go-to move.

 

[richgates]

Jefferson and Biedrins must be given "proper respect":

https://twitter.com/DJJazzyJody/status/355097936562098177

I am really hoping that was due to the time with the Jazz. Since these are players with expiring contracts and no history with the Jazz I'm hoping Corbin does the right thing. Wishful thinking I know...

 

[fishonjazz]

FWIW, that was Allen Iverson's go-to move, it's Chris Paul's go-to move and it's also DWill's go-to move.

Good point catchall

 

[b_line]

When I said they spent money I meant on getting back to the #27 pick and getting Gobert.. not the fluff they got when picking up GSW's '14 pick.
There is a strong possibility they simply didn't like Schroeder enough or any of the other guys you named.

What it seems like, to me, is this..

Dennis Lindsey comes in and asks a ton of questions of members of the front office and Corbin. He leaves those discussions completely underwhelmed by how little any of them had a plan or understood their roster.. he made the decision to take no one's word for it and to just take a year to personally evaluate every single facet that is Jazz basketball. Start over, if you will. I don't feel Lindsey felt comfortable enough to just add a couple pieces and move into next season as a winning team. I think Lindsey is swooping in and saving the day and is the Chuck Norris of NBA GM's.

This here is pure poetry. Best insight ever.

 

[Harcher]

When I said they spent money I meant on getting back to the #27 pick and getting Gobert.. not the fluff they got when picking up GSW's '14 pick.
There is a strong possibility they simply didn't like Schroeder enough or any of the other guys you named.

What it seems like, to me, is this..

Dennis Lindsey comes in and asks a ton of questions of members of the front office and Corbin. He leaves those discussions completely underwhelmed by how little any of them had a plan or understood their roster.. he made the decision to take no one's word for it and to just take a year to personally evaluate every single facet that is Jazz basketball. Start over, if you will. I don't feel Lindsey felt comfortable enough to just add a couple pieces and move into next season as a winning team. I think Lindsey is swooping in and saving the day and is the Chuck Norris of NBA GM's.

I don't think the Jazz FO was this clueless. I do think Lindsey has injected a new confidence to do things beyond what the Jazz have normally done. However, the preparation for this year's cap space was understood and outlined by KOC publicly over and over. I think the Jazz FO knew that this past year was about playing Al and Sap and trying to maximize any trade value they could get and maximizing the entertainment value while the two of them (and mo) was on the team. And simultaneously, I don't think they ever believed that the BigAl + Sap was "the answer." But they did bring guys who allowed the team to remain competitive and could possibly have been "keepers." (mo and foye) Tryouts if you will. No harm in that in my opinion ON ONE YEAR DEALS ONLY - becuase the longer term plan was in place and was a higher law than "signing mediocre players for long term". But they did that with full understanding that turning the reigns over the youngins is not the right time and the time for that is 2013-14. (I think the ideal would have been that the Paul and Al expiring would have been one year earlier, but it wasn't.)
.
Then, combined with the new CBA, it's possible (and/or Miller's have more money than ever) that a full re-build is a plausible plan. A long-held Jazz management position was to be "competitive" to keep the team profitable and in Utah. I think the Jazz are past that requirement. (LHM said it himself in the Booz/Okur/Deron/AK era.) (As a comparison, i heard some commentary that Danny Ainge was "bold" and "courageous" to so quickly dismantle the Celtics and start over.... B.S. I don't think that is "bold" at all. There is 99.9999% chance that the Celtics will financially weather the storm of a rebuild. It is just what you have to do, and the increased TV revenues - and the Nets and Lakers spending like a drunken sailors - have made this possible for all franchises.)
.
With or without Lindsey, Jazz fans and Jazz FO saw that CORE4 is a suitable group to go forward with and saw enough of them to think there is potential in them to be as good as Jefferson and Sap (hence making those two expendable) but with upside to be better and even be CORE pieces of a champoinship contender. We'll find out.

No doubt Lindsey has been a real influence on the Jazz. But Greg miller had to agree to this. Greg had to agree to pay both KOC and DL and also Randy Rigby knows the financial risk of the Jazz tanking - er rebuilding. The Jazz is a well run org, not with out its faults, but KOC and FO in general has been on top of things reasonably well in my opinion.
.
The good news now is that the Jazz are in a position to try all means to WIN A RING and i think they've been making this plan for years.

 

[ONE LOVE]

^^^

If this was the plan all along, why did the Jazz hold onto Al Jefferson & Paul Millsap for those 2 years? They could have given them away pretty much and start this "rebuild" much quicker.

- Favors, Hayward, Kanter, Burks would have received significant minutes the last 2 years

- We would have been in play for at least the '12 loaded draft

Why the wait for those 2 years?

 

[Stifle Tower]

I don't think the Jazz FO was this clueless. I do think Lindsey has injected a new confidence to do things beyond what the Jazz have normally done. However, the preparation for this year's cap space was understood and outlined by KOC publicly over and over. I think the Jazz FO knew that this past year was about playing Al and Sap and trying to maximize any trade value they could get and maximizing the entertainment value while the two of them (and mo) was on the team. And simultaneously, I don't think they ever believed that the BigAl + Sap was "the answer." But they did bring guys who allowed the team to remain competitive and could possibly have been "keepers." (mo and foye) Tryouts if you will. No harm in that in my opinion ON ONE YEAR DEALS ONLY - becuase the longer term plan was in place and was a higher law than "signing mediocre players for long term". But they did that with full understanding that turning the reigns over the youngins is not the right time and the time for that is 2013-14. (I think the ideal would have been that the Paul and Al expiring would have been one year earlier, but it wasn't.)
.

Agree. KOC started unwinding contracts before Lindsey arrived. He talked a few times about financial flexibility because the new CBA with the punitive tax was going to change the landscape of the NBA. Foye did want a long-term deal but KOC held firm. And we know the original plan was to bring in Mo for a long time; they said so in the press conference. KOC was committed to a rebuild, but I think he envisioned a slightly different direction: going with the young guys, but bringing in solid veterans to round out the rotations. But as PKM noted, Lindsey had a different vision. He completely revamped the scouting. He kept saying that you don't "skip steps" in a rebuild. I think his plan all along was to go the "professional tank" route, bringing in young guys to put behind the "Core4": Olynyk as the 3rd big, Gobert as a project, Neto as perhaps the heir to Mo or as the backup to an unnamed FA acquisition. Then the draft set the table and the GS offer sealed the deal. And yes, after a 30 year commitment to winning, hats off to Miller for assuming some business risk by willing to concede to a year of real losing. Jazz could have signed better players with their cap space and counted on internal development + a lottery pick in the teens to improve next season and beyond. Instead, they're going for a home run (or at least a triple) by landing in the top 5-7 of the draft. AS I've said before, we all have different perspectives, maybe slightly different opinions of how this has and is playing out. But most of us CAN agree that Lindsey, KOC, Miller, etc. are being incredibly BOLD.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

^^^

If this was the plan all along, why did the Jazz hold onto Al Jefferson & Paul Millsap for those 2 years? They could have given them away pretty much and start this "rebuild" much quicker.

- Favors, Hayward, Kanter, Burks would have received significant minutes the last 2 years

- We would have been in play for at least the '12 loaded draft

Why the wait for those 2 years?

One strategy to develop young talent is to make them earn their time and learn from vets along the way. Favors and Kanter were studying Al Jefferson's footwork and post moves everyday in practice. Alec Burks had to earn time on the floor vs. Foye and the vet PGs. It makes them work harder hopefully.

 

[Stifle Tower]

^^^

If this was the plan all along, why did the Jazz hold onto Al Jefferson & Paul Millsap for those 2 years? They could have given them away pretty much and start this "rebuild" much quicker.

- Favors, Hayward, Kanter, Burks would have received significant minutes the last 2 years

- We would have been in play for at least the '12 loaded draft

Why the wait for those 2 years?

I don't think a 25-30 win season, which may be where we're headed now, and would have certainly been the case with playing Kanter and Favors 30+ mins two years ago, was the rebuilding blueprint all along. KOC accomplished the last "rebuild" with only one terrible season - and that was due to injury, not original intent. He also rebuilt mainly through FA (Okur, Boozer). The plan was to try to build around Deron and then it disintegrated. I think we saw Hayward was going to be a decent player the latter half of his rookie year. We didn't really know about Favors and Kanter until this past season. Who knows what the offers were for Jefferson...did we have to take back contracts we didn't want? AS for Millsap, I think the FO was genuinely torn on what to do. And for good reason: he's meant a lot to the team. I think there was still some hesitancy to let him go up until the time they decided to pull the trigger on the GS deal. You have to admit Millsap as the 3rd big, Mayo in the wing rotation, someone like Jack or Calderon splitting time with Burke...it's tempting to go that route. If Hayward and Kanter or Favors shows significant improvement, maybe the team is fighting for a #6 seed. Then the question becomes, can you grow with that group + a pick in the teens? The answer by Lindsey was 'no' and thus the exodus of Millsap, Foye and DMC. I think they all may have wanted to return but were waiting on Lindsey to make a final decision on the rebuild: strip it down to the studs, or keep some of the old walls intact?

 

[ONE LOVE]

I don't think a 25-30 win season, which may be where we're headed now, and would have certainly been the case with playing Kanter and Favors 30+ mins two years ago, was the rebuilding blueprint all along. KOC accomplished the last "rebuild" with only one terrible season - and that was due to injury, not original intent. He also rebuilt mainly through FA (Okur, Boozer). The plan was to try to build around Deron and then it disintegrated. I think we saw Hayward was going to be a decent player the latter half of his rookie year. We didn't really know about Favors and Kanter until this past season. Who knows what the offers were for Jefferson...did we have to take back contracts we didn't want? AS for Millsap, I think the FO was genuinely torn on what to do. And for good reason: he's meant a lot to the team. I think there was still some hesitancy to let him go up until the time they decided to pull the trigger on the GS deal. You have to admit Millsap as the 3rd big, Mayo in the wing rotation, someone like Jack or Calderon splitting time with Burke...it's tempting to go that route. If Hayward and Kanter or Favors shows significant improvement, maybe the team is fighting for a #6 seed. Then the question becomes, can you grow with that group + a pick in the teens? The answer by Lindsey was 'no' and thus the exodus of Millsap, Foye and DMC. I think they all may have wanted to return but were waiting on Lindsey to make a final decision on the rebuild: strip it down to the studs, or keep some of the old walls intact?

Great post. Rep'd.

I definitely can't go through another one of KOC's "rebuild". Millsap, Jack, Calderon, Mayo? No thanks. You just can't win in this league without a surefire All Star.

With Lindsey now we're looking at Aaron Harrison + Jabari. Those 2 alone can give us the Westbrook/Durant tandem, let alone having Kanter & Favors as well.

BOOM!!!!!!!

 

[Game6Conley]

Great post. Rep'd.

I definitely can't go through another one of KOC's "rebuild". Millsap, Jack, Calderon, Mayo? No thanks. You just can't win in this league without a surefire All Star.

what if favors kanter mayo or hayward turn into a surfire allstar?

can you win with players like Millsap, Jack, Calderon and Burke under those conditions??? i say yes

if kanter can avoid foul trouble (mainly offensive fouls) i still dont see why he couldent average a ton of points and a ton of rebounds, on efficient %'s, while getting to the line a decent amount

the part in bold, i think, would have really helped the other young players on the roster... in a war of attrition type of deal

27 field goal attempts per game for millsap and jefferson... what purpose did that serve exactly, i can only think they were trying to discipline Favors and Kanter.

now they appear ready to pass the torch to a rookie?

teams like the yankees, or college football and basketball powerhouses are given ample amounts of **** for doing all in their power to win, every year

im glad bill simmons brings attention to what the jazz are doing and calls it smart, to me thats really just a backhanded jab at the celtics saying youre no better than the jazz, whom clearly arent doing all in their power to get wins now.

the jazz model is nothing new, its nothing the washington nationals didnt do to get Bryce Harper and Stephen Strasburg, a few years ago in baseball, or the devil rays before that to land a rediculous run of #1picks, its the same failed model the Magic have been using from the 90's

their only saving grace is that theirs other owners pimping their teams out worse, but to me the jazz are not going for the playoffs next year, i dont understand why that is, when we have a good foundation

 

[Deleted member 848]

This is all on Kevin O'Connor, Dennis Lindsey, and Greg Miller.

Lindsey was the catalyst, the spark that got things in motion. O'Connor was the hospitable environment. And GreggyBoy was the resources, the source of energy that allowed this chemical reaction of Front-Office Supremacy to continue uninhibited.

 

[Deleted member 848]

But yeah. Lindsey getting hired changed everything, but we wouldn't even be here (or hire DL to begin with) if it wasn't for the wizardry of KOC.

 

[Game6Conley]

i say for the sake of fairness if you extend the lottery to all 30 teams and set the chances to win the lottery in a small spectrum between 2-4%, thats fair, still can be exploited, but not by playing possum, so the creme will always rise to the top, as apparently it still does now

this also should increase the value of 1st rounders(pre lottery drawing) greatly..

except whats the incentive to buy a ****ty franchise? (other than what mark cuban has done) i suspect this way is better for ratings(in a soap opera, type of suspense building BS)/the vested interest in the league type deal... if your team sucks and you only have a 3% chance to win the lottery its really bad for business

and would teams have loaded decks prepared for these rule changes? a team like the jazz would benefit too much, a team like the knicks or nets could be devastated by injuries or a free agent departure under these rules, passes too much power to the agents/players, so the lie will continue to be perpetuated

ultimately this works because teams who still want to build through the draft will be forced to pay for draft picks pre lottery, rather than the premium on draft night, and it will force teams to horde picks to go for the best players, instead of sandbag their teams record all season...

but teams who are affected negatively will cry foul, and this would never happen

 

[Stifle Tower]

what if favors kanter mayo or hayward turn into a surfire allstar?

can you win with players like Millsap, Jack, Calderon and Burke under those conditions??? i say yes

if kanter can avoid foul trouble (mainly offensive fouls) i still dont see why he couldent average a ton of points and a ton of rebounds, on efficient %'s, while getting to the line a decent amount

the part in bold, i think, would have really helped the other young players on the roster... in a war of attrition type of deal

27 field goal attempts per game for millsap and jefferson... what purpose did that serve exactly, i can only think they were trying to discipline Favors and Kanter.

now they appear ready to pass the torch to a rookie?

teams like the yankees, or college football and basketball powerhouses are given ample amounts of **** for doing all in their power to win, every year

im glad bill simmons brings attention to what the jazz are doing and calls it smart, to me thats really just a backhanded jab at the celtics saying youre no better than the jazz, whom clearly arent doing all in their power to get wins now.

the jazz model is nothing new, its nothing the washington nationals didnt do to get Bryce Harper and Stephen Strasburg, a few years ago in baseball, or the devil rays before that to land a rediculous run of #1picks, its the same failed model the Magic have been using from the 90's

their only saving grace is that theirs other owners pimping their teams out worse, but to me the jazz are not going for the playoffs next year, i dont understand why that is, when we have a good foundation

Guess we'll always have a difference of opinion. The championship model - outside of the one year the Pistons won - has always been to have a superstar (or two) and a couple of other players at all-star level. I just don't see Favors, Kanter and Hayward at that level. They're very good players, perhaps some may even play in an all-star game or two. But we don't have anyone at the level of a LeBron, Kobe, Durant, Duncan or even a Tony Parker. And none of the FA's we could bring in would be on that level. Can we win with the young guys + Millsap, Jack and Burke? Yes, in the mid 40's, maybe 50-55 games when everything goes right. But the team will never contend. Jazz nation has been content with that model for 20 years, ever since John and Karl took their best shots against Chicago and Houston and came up short. Guess you can say Utah briefly flirted with contention under Deron, but we knew Boozer wasn't a warrior, Memo couldn't defend and AK had mentally checked out. We ONLY got to the WC Finals because of GS' surprising upset. It was clear Utah would never make it past SA or LA. Now we might have a pretty good young core. But we need a star - a "go-to" guy. And the best shot for making that happen is not via free agency; it's in the 2014 draft.

 

[Sexual Favors]

Guess we'll always have a difference of opinion. The championship model - outside of the one year the Pistons won - has always been to have a superstar (or two) and a couple of other players at all-star level. I just don't see Favors, Kanter and Hayward at that level. They're very good players, perhaps some may even play in an all-star game or two. But we don't have anyone at the level of a LeBron, Kobe, Durant, Duncan or even a Tony Parker. And none of the FA's we could bring in would be on that level. Can we win with the young guys + Millsap, Jack and Burke? Yes, in the mid 40's, maybe 50-55 games when everything goes right. But the team will never contend. Jazz nation has been content with that model for 20 years, ever since John and Karl took their best shots against Chicago and Houston and came up short. Guess you can say Utah briefly flirted with contention under Deron, but we knew Boozer wasn't a warrior, Memo couldn't defend and AK had mentally checked out. We ONLY got to the WC Finals because of GS' surprising upset. It was clear Utah would never make it past SA or LA. Now we might have a pretty good young core. But we need a star - a "go-to" guy. And the best shot for making that happen is not via free agency; it's in the 2014 draft.

Agree whole heartedly with this. If Burke is unimpressive this year, Donte Exum is looking really good. Right now, for our team, I'd love Wiggins, Parker, Exum, and then my next tier would be Harrison, Smart, or James Young. I think all of those guys could be franchise players.

 

[Game6Conley]

my pooint is, if the jazz are truely in asset acquisition mode why arent they going after tradeable assets, with value on the court...?

if $$ is tight, why didnt they cut Raja Bell? why would they trade for Richard Jefferson and Andris Beidrins?

the warriors tanked the jazz out of a lottery pick, so the next year they compound that error trading #21 for 5spots in a "weak draft"

if the jazz were truely trying to tank/load the warchest, why not go with the risk/reward of Dennis Schroeder or Larkin at 14 with minimal role/expectations, also it turns out #21 could have landed Mason Plumlee, a player many were comfortable with the jazz drafting at 14

presuming Gobert could be had for #46 + cash, would have been met with great resistance in the draft thread so now it looks like a spectacular, unlikely trade

and Neto for $$$ too,

Schroder, Plumlee, Kanter, Favors, Hayward, Burks, Gobert, Neto... to me i dont think wed need to keep stacking draft picks to the ceiling after that, go after a few YOUNG, PROVEN FA's, wed still have 3 1st round draft picks the next 3 years...

its not about $$$, or the draft picks really, its about hedging your bets, which to me should be eliminated from professional sports at all costs, unless they plan to legalize gambling

i always said to pay Jeff Teague and Tyreke Evans "Market-Value" which is infact less that what Jefferson/Millsap were payed last year, and R. Jefferson and Beidrins this upcoming season

i dont see how a few spots in the 2014 draft is worth drafting rookies in 2013 as opposed to allocating the cap space to deficiencies