A Place for Conservatives

[Gameface]

"Gaslighting" is kind of a trendy term right now. It's based on a pretty old movie where a husband makes his wife think she's going crazy by turning down the kerosene lamps and when she says it's dark he tells her it's actually really bright.

So people use it incorrectly as a synonym for "lie" but it's more about creating a false reality and then making people question their own ability to tell reality from fantasy.

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[silesian]

Every link provided refutes this statement:

“People who are willing to commit acts of evil DO NOT follow gun laws!“

None of them say that 0% of criminals follow gun laws.

So I’ll just sit back while evidence piles up supporting my position.

 

[silesian]

Everyone knows it is super easy for a crazy person to get a gun, legally or illegally.

Hard to believe arguments that we are completely impotent to change this

 

[silesian]

Suicide is the biggest cause of gun death. Yet it is ignored by these stats. Not sure why. Is it because people who commit suicide tend get their guns legally?

 

[Stoked]

Suicide is the biggest cause of gun death. Yet it is ignored by these stats. Not sure why. Is it because people who commit suicide tend get their guns legally?

Devils advocate

Is it because it shows the magnitude of the mental health problems in America?

 

[LogGrad98]

Devils advocate

Is it because it shows the magnitude of the mental health problems in America?

This.

It's like the joker said in the dark Knight. If it's all part of "the plan" no one cares. Mental health carries a stigma with it that makes people uncomfortable so suicides become part of "the plan". It's just something that happens. But shooting a dozen kids in a school is not part of "the plan", so it's terrible, horrible, WE. MUST. DO. SOMETHING.

But 20k suicides isn't enough to do something because it's part of "the plan". It's just something that happens and everyone clucks their tongue about it and says "that's too bad" or blames the person who killed themselves and since it didn't hurt anyone else, well we just turn back to our day.

I know there are people who care deeply about this, I am one of them, but the stigma in society about it still means that 20k suicides per year isn't enough to prompt legislation.

 

[Gameface]

Suicide is the biggest cause of gun death. Yet it is ignored by these stats. Not sure why. Is it because people who commit suicide tend get their guns legally?

Because when we talk about "gun violence" or "gun crime" I don't think any of us are talking about suicides. And I don't think they should be included when talking about those things or just generically thrown in with gun related deaths. I think it is a completely separate issue.

 

[silesian]

Because when we talk about "gun violence" or "gun crime" I don't think any of us are talking about suicides. And I don't think they should be included when talking about those things or just generically thrown in with gun related deaths. I think it is a completely separate issue.

All fair points.

Although I think that some may be excluding this data to support their point of view (but I am notoriously cynical about this)

Also, in the context of background checks and other gun regulations, I think we need to consider the totality of effect across society, including both suicide and violent crimes.

 

[fishonjazz]

Because when we talk about "gun violence" or "gun crime" I don't think any of us are talking about suicides. And I don't think they should be included when talking about those things or just generically thrown in with gun related deaths. I think it is a completely separate issue.

I agree.
There are tons of non gun related suicides. In fact, and I don't have any numbers to back this up, I would guess that there are more non gun related suicides than there are gun related suicides especially if you include a lot of overdoses (many overdoses are not accidents).

Where as something like murder I would guess that there are way more gun related murders in the US than there are murders by knife, poisoning, strangulation, etc.

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[JazzyFresh]

My best friend jumped off of a bridge to kill himself. It devastated me for a long while and still stays with me. Do I blame the bridge? Do I consider that bridge violent?

I myself never blame the gun, even in shooting sprees, suicide, or drive by shootings. The gun is an instrument, the killing is a human condition that has been around since the beginning. The gun/bridge does not make people so depressed and sad that they can't do it anymore. The gun does not make some wacko think going on a rampage is ok. The gun does not shoot someone over a drug deal, gang colors, being in the wrong territory, or over a pair of sneakers.

 

[Gameface]

My best friend jumped off of a bridge to kill himself. It devastated me for a long while and still stays with me. Do I blame the bridge? Do I consider that bridge violent?

I myself never blame the gun, even in shooting sprees, suicide, or drive by shootings. The gun is an instrument, the killing is a human condition that has been around since the beginning. The gun/bridge does not make people so depressed and sad that they can't do it anymore. The gun does not make some wacko think going on a rampage is ok. The gun does not shoot someone over a drug deal, gang colors, being in the wrong territory, or over a pair of sneakers.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but suicides are far more successful (odd use of the term "successful") with guns than with almost any other method. Many people who attempt suicide survive and then go on to lead long happy lives, that's much less true when a gun is the "instrument" used.

So there's a discussion to be had regarding the role of guns in suicide, an important discussion. I just don't think we should skew the debate over "gun violence" by including suicide stats.

 

[fishonjazz]

My best friend jumped off of a bridge to kill himself. It devastated me for a long while and still stays with me. Do I blame the bridge? Do I consider that bridge violent?

I myself never blame the gun, even in shooting sprees, suicide, or drive by shootings. The gun is an instrument, the killing is a human condition that has been around since the beginning. The gun/bridge does not make people so depressed and sad that they can't do it anymore. The gun does not make some wacko think going on a rampage is ok. The gun does not shoot someone over a drug deal, gang colors, being in the wrong territory, or over a pair of sneakers.

Guns are the most efficient and effective way to kill.
Also, there are times when a gun malfunctions. Would you blame the gun in that case?

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