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Abortions.

Boy you really take that far road every possible time, don't you.

The short answer: Yes.

The long answer: If you've gone as far as to have a kid(9 months of life change + the "unimaginable" pain of child birth) you should probably give it up for adoption instead of putting it to sleep, just as any responsible pet owner should do. Children seem to be in a little higher demand than pets, particularly newborns.

I am sorry but you are way out in left field on this one. I can see an arguement being made for 6-7 month abortions but anything past birth is murder by law. Rightfully so.

As for that far road. I want your full, detailed position before I truly get into it. Both to know how to respond and to know what I do and do not agree with. Welcome to debate.
 
I am sorry but you are way out in left field on this one. I can see an arguement being made for 6-7 month abortions but anything past birth is murder by law. Rightfully so.

As for that far road. I want your full, detailed position before I truly get into it. Both to know how to respond and to know what I do and do not agree with. Welcome to debate.

You are more than welcome to criticize my beliefs. But remember they are just that - Mine. I'm not forcing anyone into them, or trying to dictate law based on them.

Would I kill babies? No. Do I see them as people? No. They're crawling, slobbering, crap creators that require your full attention. Should I have one of my own my opinion may change, but as a responsible adult I'm not going to create life before I'm ready to provide for it.

If you are incapable of care, or just do not want that responsibility, you should take that child somewhere responsible (Child services, adoption service, LDS family services). You should not be randomly killing babies, and we should not be "putting them to sleep".

But there you were, more than happy to take the furthest, worst road possible and you were ready to pounce on me being a despicable human being because I don't see children as people until they are self aware. Your actions and quick to judge as soon as possible attitude lay credence to the idea that you never do anything to "see what others think", you only ever do something so you can criticize what others think.

You turned a simple statement into a one sided cold war.
 
You are more than welcome to criticize my beliefs. But remember they are just that - Mine. I'm not forcing anyone into them, or trying to dictate law based on them.

Would I kill babies? No. Do I see them as people? No. They're crawling, slobbering, crap creators that require your full attention. Should I have one of my own my opinion may change, but as a responsible adult I'm not going to create life before I'm ready to provide for it.

If you are incapable of care, or just do not want that responsibility, you should take that child somewhere responsible (Child services, adoption service, LDS family services). You should not be randomly killing babies, and we should not be "putting them to sleep".

But there you were, more than happy to take the furthest, worst road possible and you were ready to pounce on me being a despicable human being because I don't see children as people until they are self aware. Your actions and quick to judge as soon as possible attitude lay credence to the idea that you never do anything to "see what others think", you only ever do something so you can criticize what others think.

You turned a simple statement into a one sided cold war.


OK Franklin
 
OK Franklin

At one point or another you'll have to address whether there's a grain of truth there or not.

I'm sure if enough people say it, you'll consider it.

Until then keep on trollin. If nothing else, it keeps most entertained.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt6rRNANSgI
 
So I read the article in psychology today. The crux of their argument is that they don't see "evidence" of self-awareness until 1-3 years. And everything they mention as evidence has to do with communication.

This evidence includes: infants’ behavior in front of a mirror, their use of verbal labels for self, and empathic acts

Absence of evidence (as in a 1 month old that cannot communicate) does not mean absence of self-awareness. It just means we can't see it or identify it in any way we can confirm. Doesn't mean it isn't there, just that we have no way to prove it. Just because we cannot prove it doesn't mean it cannot exist. Human are notoriously fallable. Another quote.

Prior to the age of eighteen months, infants do not seem to know that what they are seeing in a mirror is their own reflection.

Just because they do not seem to recognize it doesn't mean they are not self-aware. If you had never seen your reflection before, or only rarely, then the first time you ever did you would not be inclined to first respond "hey that's me" since you would have no idea what that image was to begin with. You would have to learn that. Just because they haven't learned that yet doesn't mean they are not self-aware. Even their summary is a nod to the possibility that self-awareness is still there, just perhaps not fully developed.

Summary A major development in the transition from infant to toddler involves an increase in self-awareness. The child seems to become a person – with interests and likes and dislikes.

And in the second article it is far from definitive. It again relies on seeing the evidence in the same way we would expect from an adult. But they do acknowledge there is still a ways to go in this.

The team displayed remarkable patience to gather data from infants, says cognitive neuroscientist Lawrence Ward of the University of British Columbia, Vancouver, in Canada, who was not involved in the study. However, the work, although well executed, is not the last word, he says. “I expect we’ll find several different neural activity patterns to be correlated with consciousness.”

Comparing infant brain waves to adult patterns is tricky, says Charles Nelson, a neuropsychologist at Harvard Medical School in Boston. “ERP components change dramatically over the first few years of life,” he writes in an e-mail. “I would be reluctant to attribute the same mental operation (i.e., consciousness) in infants as in adults simply because of similar patterns of brain activity.”

So the best these say is that the earliest we can DETECT something similar to consciousness or self-awareness (not necessarily the same thing) is at maybe 5 months. Just because we cannot detect does not mean it definitively does not exist.

Here is an article with somewhat similar, yet contrasting, viewpoint.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=when-does-consciousness-arise

Consciousness requires a sophisticated network of highly interconnected components, nerve cells. Its physical substrate, the thalamo-cortical complex that provides consciousness with its highly elaborate content, begins to be in place between the 24th and 28th week of gestation. Roughly two months later synchrony of the electroencephalographic (EEG) rhythm across both cortical hemispheres signals the onset of global neuronal integration. Thus, many of the circuit elements necessary for consciousness are in place by the third trimester. By this time, preterm infants can survive outside the womb under proper medical care.

Who is to say that true self-awareness doesn't start when the physical constructs are in place, yet the motor abilities and cognitive abilities to manifest it to our observation and understanding are simply not yet in place.


But I guess in context of this thread, the argument is that it isn't a "person" or a "human" until it is shown to be self-aware. In that context we could justify all kinds of things. Someone who is incapable of showing their self-awareness could then be determined to no longer be a "human", instead simply an animal, and therefore there would be no moral qualms about terminating that life (someone who is catatonic due to injury perhaps, or severely mentally handicapped, for example). Seems to be a slippery slope. If the organism is going to become a human being, then it is such at conception, for all intents and purposes.

But that is the age-old debate in this particular issue, one that I suspect will never be resolved. When is the baby "alive", when is it a "person" when is it ok to kill and then suddenly after it crosses some (largely) arbitrary finish line NOT ok to kill it?

I personally have no idea what the truth is to this. I doubt anyone does.

My opinion is that if it has the capability to become a human being left to its own devices and with reasonable care (as in, unaborted, or unabused by drug intake by the mother or similar) then it is, in essence, human from the get-go, and should be treated as such.
 
So I read the article in psychology today. The crux of their argument is that they don't see "evidence" of self-awareness until 1-3 years. And everything they mention as evidence has to do with communication.



Absence of evidence (as in a 1 month old that cannot communicate) does not mean absence of self-awareness. It just means we can't see it or identify it in any way we can confirm. Doesn't mean it isn't there, just that we have no way to prove it. Just because we cannot prove it doesn't mean it cannot exist. Human are notoriously fallable. Another quote.



Just because they do not seem to recognize it doesn't mean they are not self-aware. If you had never seen your reflection before, or only rarely, then the first time you ever did you would not be inclined to first respond "hey that's me" since you would have no idea what that image was to begin with. You would have to learn that. Just because they haven't learned that yet doesn't mean they are not self-aware. Even their summary is a nod to the possibility that self-awareness is still there, just perhaps not fully developed.



And in the second article it is far from definitive. It again relies on seeing the evidence in the same way we would expect from an adult. But they do acknowledge there is still a ways to go in this.



So the best these say is that the earliest we can DETECT something similar to consciousness or self-awareness (not necessarily the same thing) is at maybe 5 months. Just because we cannot detect does not mean it definitively does not exist.

Here is an article with somewhat similar, yet contrasting, viewpoint.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=when-does-consciousness-arise



Who is to say that true self-awareness doesn't start when the physical constructs are in place, yet the motor abilities and cognitive abilities to manifest it to our observation and understanding are simply not yet in place.


But I guess in context of this thread, the argument is that it isn't a "person" or a "human" until it is shown to be self-aware. In that context we could justify all kinds of things. Someone who is incapable of showing their self-awareness could then be determined to no longer be a "human", instead simply an animal, and therefore there would be no moral qualms about terminating that life (someone who is catatonic due to injury perhaps, or severely mentally handicapped, for example). Seems to be a slippery slope. If the organism is going to become a human being, then it is such at conception, for all intents and purposes.

But that is the age-old debate in this particular issue, one that I suspect will never be resolved. When is the baby "alive", when is it a "person" when is it ok to kill and then suddenly after it crosses some (largely) arbitrary finish line NOT ok to kill it?

I personally have no idea what the truth is to this. I doubt anyone does.

My opinion is that if it has the capability to become a human being left to its own devices and with reasonable care (as in, unaborted, or unabused by drug intake by the mother or similar) then it is, in essence, human from the get-go, and should be treated as such.

And I can totally understand and respect this. It's not my belief, but I understand how some could think that way. Besides, who am I to say I'm right and they're wrong? All I know is what my reasoning skills have led me to.

Thank you LogGrad. You've summed a good portion of this up pretty well. Now that we're back on topic, everyone please continue to share your beliefs and opinions on this subject.
 
This is such a STUPID thing to talk about. You can't win either way. Here is what we know:

People will get abortions.
Abortions kill fetuses which we don't know if they could or could not become adults.
Some people like them. Other's don't.
Women have control over whether or not they want a child, but men don't get the same benefit (for example, if a man wants to have the baby, and the woman doesn't, she can get an abortion. BUT, if a woman wants the baby and the man doesn't, he is stuck with child support payments for 18 years).

Here is my take:

I am against abortion for myself unless there is rape, incest or the health of the mother. In a perfect world, that is what I would want the law to be. BUT, here is the problem:

How do you legislate that? When is a woman raped? What is she says no after penetration, but a split second before ejaculation and she gets pregnant? Is she raped? I dunno. What about the health of the mother? When is a mother mentally unable to care for a baby? I dunno.

And I don't believe anyone should be able to answer those questions other than the person who is pregnant because we will let our biases show. The hard core right wing guy will say it wasn't rape because she allowed penetration. The wacky liberal lefty will say it is rape because she said no, and he didn't get out quick enough. It isn't right to allow one or the other to make that law.

It should be left up to the individual.

Which is why I think abortion should be legal. I don't think any normal human would be against abortion if a girl was raped by her brother. Or a stranger. Or a boyfriend/husband. Or if the girl would die. The arguments come from what defines those situations.

So, make it legal. Let each woman decide what she is going to do, and let God/Allah/Mother Earth judge her when the time comes for that. Let people be accountable for their actions.

All abortion is, is a topic for the left to bring up when they aren't doing so great, because they know the right is full of idiots that will say something stupid that takes away from the lack of production from the left.
 
I've been jumping in and out (been busy this morning) and it appears I am coming off in a bad way. For that I apologize Roach. If I miscontsrued then my bad. You're good people.

Franklin can go pound sand.
 
All abortion is, is a topic for the left to bring up when they aren't doing so great, because they know the right is full of idiots that will say something stupid that takes away from the lack of production from the left.

Two things there:
1. Texas tried to provide an unconstitutional law that would shutdown many clinics. That was the right that brought that up, not the left.
2. With the exception of a crappy website, the left seems to be doing fine right now, and it was still brought up.

So I'm not entirely sure how you can say it's the left bringing it up because the right are idiots.

Other than that, I'm with you on the Government should stay out of it pre-birth.
 
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