Agbaji is balling
- Thread starter jazznik
- Start date
Agbaji is routinely thrown at the best opposing wing or guard, which mostly explains his plus-minus. Kinda like Kessler on the Jazz currently having the worst (by far!) plus-minus among all Jazz bigs.
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The Jazz Wonderbra
Well-Known Member
I like Agbaji. Wish him luck. I also don't think he looked to be a starting caliber 3&D player. More like a 3 and F player. Tee hee.
Having said that, I thought he had a place in Utah.
To add color to this conversation, we essentially traded Olynyk rental (werent going to keep him) and Agbaji for Collier.
If it is Agbaji in his 4th season or Collier, who do you keep straight up?
Having said that, I thought he had a place in Utah.
To add color to this conversation, we essentially traded Olynyk rental (werent going to keep him) and Agbaji for Collier.
If it is Agbaji in his 4th season or Collier, who do you keep straight up?
The Jazz Wonderbra
Well-Known Member
Agbaji looked terrible at summer league with the ball in his hands. Like TERRIBLE...
Kessler's numbers are bad, but there are guys with clearly worse numbers dragging him down (Key and Clarkson in particular).
Cant say the same for Ochai, who has nearly twice the negative to Dick, Poeltl and Davion Mitchell who are the other three guys to appear in all 11 games and start at least 8 of them (Ochai has appeared in all 11, and started 9).
It's a little bit offtopic, but the plus-minus does funny things for the solid defensive starters on very bad or very good teams. Usually what makes the team very bad or very good is their starters: the difference between benches is usually much smaller. And the solid defensive players do not make the starting five either very good or very bad - that's the production of stars. But as a result the plus-minus of those solid starters is unfairly elevated or dragged down.
For example, the best plus-minus on the last season's Celtics belongs to Derrick White, the second best plus-minus on the 23-24 Nuggets (just a hair below Jokic!) - to KCP, and the second highest on the 23-24 Cavs - to Max Strus. And on the teams struggling this year Agbaji and Kessler are unfairly bad on the struggling Raptors and Jazz and Ingram is the worst for the Pelicans.
The best plus-minus players on the Jazz are all off the bench, led by mighty Patty Mills and Eubanks, and they are likely to remain among the leaders going forward because the Jazz' bench is not nearly as horrible as their starters.
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The best defenders are (as you also said) often high up in the plus minus for their teams. That logic does not reverse for bad teams, even if the starter vs starter stats turn into negative ones. See Dunn and Kessler last year, both of whom started plenty of games. Tech also was one of the top plus minus guys, but his full season numbers arent comparable.
I'm not comparing Ochai to their bench, but to Dick, Mitchell and Poeltl. Those guys have gotten the bulk of the starter vs starter minutes alongside Ochai, yet arent nearly as negative on the box. And Ochai's efficient stats on offense actually boost his +-, as inefficiency on offense is something that really hurts those numbers (see Keyonte).
Well yeah, that's not his game. He hasnt really changed anything about his game from what I can tell looking at advanced stats outside of he is actually hitting his shots now.
I see your point but I still think that the plus-minus for starters on very good or very bad teams is not the best metric to measure their impact. Kessler as a starter had the 3rd highest plus-minus on the Jazz in his rookie season, just a hair below Lauri. Now he starts again ... and has the third worst plus-minus: even Cody is better while Walter's plus-minus is one of the very worst in the NBA.
But Kessler's game and impact in reality changed very little and it could be argued that he is actually a better player now than in his rookie year.
Update: Agbaji keeps playing very, very well. He is now the guy with the 6th best 3PT% in the NBA, producing 12 PPG (54% - 49%) and 4.5 RPG. He also markedly improved his assist and steal count while still being very low on on turnovers. And Ochai still plays a very good defense.
This season Agbaji became one of the best 3-and-D guys in the NBA. Which is especially funny since now our expectations (hopes?) are that if everything goes right Cody Williams can - in a couple of years - become someone like Ochai.
This season Agbaji became one of the best 3-and-D guys in the NBA. Which is especially funny since now our expectations (hopes?) are that if everything goes right Cody Williams can - in a couple of years - become someone like Ochai.