All-Time NBA Draft Final Four: Ellis269 vs. One Love

[Elizah Huge]

Team Ellis269:

PG - Gary Payton / Deron Williams
SG - Michael Jordan / Kyle Korver
SF - Scottie Pippen / Jimmy Butler
PF - Chris Webber / Chris Bosh / Larry Johnson
C - Patrick Ewing / Dwight Howard / Nate Thurmond

Team One Love:

PG - Tim Hardaway / Kyrie Irving
SG - Clyde Drexler / Paul George / Brandon Roy
SF - Dominique Wilkins / Carmelo Anthony
PF - Dirk Nowitzki / LaMarcus Aldridge
C - Tim Duncan / Yao Ming / Tyson Chandler



Ellis269's Case:

PG - Gary Payton
SG - Michael Jordan
SF - Scottie Pippen
PF - Chris Webber
C - Patrick Ewing

Dream Team 2.0

Best collection of 2 way players in this thing.

All NBA 1st team - 17 starters + (5 bench)
All NBA team (any) - 39 starters + (12 bench)
All Star Games - 46 starters + (32 bench)
All Defensive 1st team - 26 starters + (6 bench)
All Defensive (any) - 31 starters + (11 bench)
Defensive MVP - 2 starters + (3 bench)
Season MVP - 5x
Finals MVP - 6x
Scoring Leader - 10x
Steals Leader - 5x
Rebounds Leader - 6x
Blocks leader - 2x
Championships - 13x

Starters vs. starters (based on their best seasons, assuming he uses the same starting group from last round). . .

One Love
133.4 points per game
43.7 rebounds per game
29.8 assists per game
9.4 steals per game
6.6 blocks per game

Ellis269
139 points per game (5.6 more points per game)
54.8 rebounds per game (21.1 more rebounds per game)
32.4 assists per game (2.6 more rebounds per game)

12.3 steals per game (2.9 more steals per game)
9.3 blocks per game (2.7 more blocks per game)

My starting lineup is better in every single key statistical category, and this with One Love's team having an offensively heavy lineup. My team also has 4 elite defenders in the starting lineup (and one underrated defender in Chris Webber who led the league in rebounds and averaged 2.2 blocks per game - only Duncan topped that on One Loves's team), while his team has one elite defender (who is playing out of position at center I might add). . . plus my team still has three elite defenders (including a 3x defensive player of the year) to bring off the bench.

His bench does have some solid offensive players and Paul George (who is his best 2 way player after Duncan) but their production drops dramatically from the starters, so he doesn't want to lean too heavily on that. I can match him big or small AND do it without sacrificing my elite defensive presence - which is not something he can claim.

The bottom line is that I have the best player to EVER play the game and an amazing group of players surrounding him, both offensively and defensively. My starters get the bulk of the minutes and my bench subs in as needed to keep everyone fresh. . . especially on the front line. Too much Jordan and too much defense to overcome.

Just as a reminder. . .

Michael Jordan
6× NBA champion (1991–1993, 1996–1998)
6× NBA Finals MVP (1991–1993, 1996–1998)
5× NBA Most Valuable Player (1988, 1991–1992, 1996, 1998)
14× NBA All-Star (1985–1993, 1996–1998, 2002–2003)
3× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1988, 1996, 1998)
10× All-NBA First Team (1987–1993, 1996–1998)
All-NBA Second Team (1985)
NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1988)
9× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1988–1993, 1996–1998)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1985)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1985)
10× NBA scoring champion (1987–1993, 1996–1998)
3× NBA steals champion (1988, 1990, 1993)
2× NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion (1987–1988)
All-Time NBA playoff leading scorer
Chicago Bulls all-time leading scorer
No. 23 retired by Chicago Bulls
No. 23 retired by Miami Heat
3x AP Athlete of the Year (1991, 1992, 1993)
2x USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (1983–1984)
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team

Best regular season statistics - 37.1 points per game - 8.0 rebounds per game - 8.0 assists per game - 3.2 steals per game - 1.6 blocks per game

Best playoff statistics - 43.7 points per game - 7.9 rebounds per game - 8.5 assists per game - 2.8 steals per game - 2.3 blocks per game

 

[Elizah Huge]

One Love's Case:

5 Important Points to consider

1. Lack of 3pt Makers = Lack of Spacing

Payton, Jordan, Pippen and Webber were not good 3 point shooters and this leads to a lack of spacing offensively, meaning that defensively our team can simply "pack the middle" with Duncan, Nowitzki, Wilkins and Drexler and defend the drive.

This is the reason Jordan will not be as effective in this match because his team lack a true 3pt shooter in the starting lineup, meaning less space for Jordan to operate in a very crowded half court.

Any missed 3's will lead to a fast break with the dynamic Tim Hardaway leading the break with Drexler handling the ball as well passing to Dominique Wilkins for easy layups/dunks at the other end.

2. Dominique Wilkins dominated Pippen historically

As good as Pippen is as a defender, Wilkins has always dominated Pippen offensively. In the 1993 playoffs this is clear:

- Dominique Wilkins: 30 points, 5.3 rebounds

- Scottie Pippen: 15.3 points, 4 rebounds

Over the course of their career stretching over 32 games (1987 - 1999) the same pattern emerged, Wilkins has always had the upper hand whenever they played:

- Dominique Wilkins: 27.5 points, 6.5 rebounds

- Scottie Pippen: 15.5 points, 6.3 rebounds

Pippen has met his match.

3. Duncan/Nowitzki pairing is too good for Ewing/Webber

The middle is where these 7-games series are won.

Tim Duncan and Dirk Nowitzki are both future Hall of Famers and have won a total of 6 Championship Rings between them, with Duncan winning 5. Ewing & Webber together have won 0. This is the pairing of the ultimate 2-way player in Duncan and the best "stretch-4" the NBA has ever seen. Nowitzki is ranked as the 7th All-Time Scorer in the NBA history.

In this match-up the Duncan/Nowitzki tandem will work perfectly giving the team the inside/outside punch offensively. Nowitzki's ability to stretch the floor will draw Webber out to the perimeter, negating his rebounding ability down low while Duncan patrols the paint.

Tim Duncan has one of the best Basketball IQ that has ever played the game and will be more than a match for Ewing defensively and will be too quick & creative for Ewing to guard him him offensively.

4. Bench Domination

The bench is where this team will dominate. One of the most talented bench in this competition. Too much scoring. Too much length. Extremely versatile. Double one player - the other would score with ease.

In a close match-up like this, the bench putting up a 10 point lead could mean the difference between a win and a loss.

- Carmelo Anthony - Unstoppable Force / Prolific Scorer

- LaMarcus Aldridge - The best Stretch 4 in the game today

- Paul George - Will match Korver/Butler defensively

- Kyrie Irving - Dynamic Scorer

5. Tim Duncan the X-Factor 5-Time Champion

This game will be won and loss in the middle. Whoever controls the paint will control the game and Tim Duncan is one of the best player to have ever played the game at the C/PF position will simply be too smart for Ewing/Webber.

The Big Fundamental has won the NBA Championship 5 times, often with limited cast to work with. His ability to make his teammates better and lift their games is unrivalled. That is why he is the X-factor in this match.

Conclusion

1) Lack of 3pt Makers = Lack of Spacing

2) Dominique Wilkins dominated Pippen historically

3) Duncan/Nowitzki pairing is too good for Ewing/Webber

4) Bench Domination

5) Tim Duncan the X-Factor 5-Time Champion

 

[spycam1]

OL, you make a good point about spacing, but the spacing of your starting line up isn't much better.

 

[Coach Ellis]

One Love is strait up wrong on the inside domination thing. Ewing/Webber are better statistically at everything over the Duncan/Nowitzki pairing (except 3pt%.)

Best season stats for each team's duo. . .

Ewing / Webber = 28.6 + 27.1 = 55.7 points per game
Duncan / Nowitzki = 25.5 + 26.6 = 52.1 points per game

Ewing / Webber = 12.1 + 13.0 = 25.1 rebounds per game
Duncan / Nowitzki = 12.9 + 9.9 = 22.8 rebounds per game

Ewing / Webber = 3.0 + 5.4 = 8.4 assists per game
Duncan / Nowitzki = 3.9 + 3.5 = 7.4 assists per game

Ewing / Webber = 1.5 + 1.8 = 3.3 steals per game
Duncan / Nowitzki = 0.9 + 1.4 = 2.3 steals per game

Ewing / Webber = 4.0 + 2.2 = 6.2 blocks per game
Duncan / Nowitzki = 2.9 + 1.5 = 4.4 blocks per game

 

[Coach Ellis]

---

OL, you make a good point about spacing, but the spacing of your starting line up isn't much better.

Agreed.

Spacing issues affect both teams. . .

Playoff shooting averages (when it counts)

Gary Payton - FG% .441 - 3pt% .315
Tim Hardaway - FG% .393 - 3pt% .320

Michael Jordan - FG% .487 - 3pt% .332
Clyde Drexler - FG% .447 - 3pt% .288

Scottie Pippen - FG% .444 - 3pt% .303
Dominique Wilkins - FG% .429 - 3pt% .281

 

[The Midnight]

One Love is strait up wrong on the inside domination thing. Ewing/Webber are better statistically at everything over the Duncan/Nowitzki pairing (except 3pt%.)

Best season stats for each team's duo. . .

Ewing / Webber = 28.6 + 27.1 = 55.7 points per game
Duncan / Nowitzki = 25.5 + 26.6 = 52.1 points per game

Ewing / Webber = 12.1 + 13.0 = 25.1 rebounds per game
Duncan / Nowitzki = 12.9 + 9.9 = 22.8 rebounds per game

Ewing / Webber = 3.0 + 5.4 = 8.4 assists per game
Duncan / Nowitzki = 3.9 + 3.5 = 7.4 assists per game

Ewing / Webber = 1.5 + 1.8 = 3.3 steals per game
Duncan / Nowitzki = 0.9 + 1.4 = 2.3 steals per game

Ewing / Webber = 4.0 + 2.2 = 6.2 blocks per game
Duncan / Nowitzki = 2.9 + 1.5 = 4.4 blocks per game

And yet Duncan/Nowitzki have a combined 6 Championship rings.... Ewing/Webber have 0.


Stats aren't everything, just ask Kanter. (OKC failing to make the playoff despite Kanter's inflated numbers)

 

[The Midnight]

OL, you make a good point about spacing, but the spacing of your starting line up isn't much better.

I've got Nowitzki in the starting lineup.. best 3pt shooting PF ever.


Plus Tim Hardaway shoots 35.5% from 3's over the course of his career.

 

[spycam1]

One Love is strait up wrong on the inside domination thing. Ewing/Webber are better statistically at everything over the Duncan/Nowitzki pairing (except 3pt%.)

Best season stats for each team's duo. . .

Ewing / Webber = 28.6 + 27.1 = 55.7 points per game
Duncan / Nowitzki = 25.5 + 26.6 = 52.1 points per game

Ewing / Webber = 12.1 + 13.0 = 25.1 rebounds per game
Duncan / Nowitzki = 12.9 + 9.9 = 22.8 rebounds per game

Ewing / Webber = 3.0 + 5.4 = 8.4 assists per game
Duncan / Nowitzki = 3.9 + 3.5 = 7.4 assists per game

Ewing / Webber = 1.5 + 1.8 = 3.3 steals per game
Duncan / Nowitzki = 0.9 + 1.4 = 2.3 steals per game

Ewing / Webber = 4.0 + 2.2 = 6.2 blocks per game
Duncan / Nowitzki = 2.9 + 1.5 = 4.4 blocks per game

That doesn't necessarily mean they impact the game more. I don't think anyone would take Ewing over Duncan, or Webber over Dirk.

 

[spycam1]

I've got Nowitzki in the starting lineup.. best 3pt shooting PF ever. Hardaway shoots 35.5% from 3's.

Dirk is obviously the best shooter among the 10 starters. And 35.5 is mediocre.

Your spacing is better, imo, but it's not a night and day difference.

 

[The Midnight]

Dirk is obviously the best shooter among the 10 starters. And 35.5 is mediocre.

Your spacing is better, imo, but it's not a night and day difference.

Gary Payton shoots it at 31.7%.

 

[Coach Ellis]

Ewing and Webber have the same number of rings as Stockton and Malone for the same reason. Michael Jordan. Neither Nowitzki nor Duncan ever had to face those Bulls teams. They're both great players, but let's not pretend that winning championships in the 2000 is the same as winning championships in the 90s.

Statistically, they were equal in a tougher era. My backcourt crushes yours. Michael Jordan once averaged 43 points per game in the playoffs. Who, on your team, is going to stop that?

 

[Coach Ellis]

That doesn't necessarily mean they impact the game more. I don't think anyone would take Ewing over Duncan, or Webber over Dirk.

I agree, but he built his team around those two, and statistically they're even at worst.

 

[spycam1]

Ewing and Webber have the same number of rings as Stockton and Malone for the same reason. Michael Jordan. Neither Nowitzki nor Duncan ever had to face those Bulls teams. They're both great players, but let's not pretend that winning championships in the 2000 is the same as winning championships in the 90s.

Statistically, they were equal in a tougher era. My backcourt crushes yours. Michael Jordan once averaged 43 points per game in the playoffs. Who, on your team, is going to stop that?

Webber didn't win rings because of MJ? Huh?

 

[Coach Ellis]

Webber didn't win rings because of MJ? Huh?

Ewing maybe. Nobody was beating the Bulls during their reign. Webber was a good, but not great player. He was never a guy to build around. Shouldn't have included him in that statement.

Trying to respond while driving. Probably not a good idea.

 

[Coach Ellis]

And yet Duncan/Nowitzki have a combined 6 Championship rings.... Ewing/Webber have none.

How many rings does your backcourt have?

Mine has 13 to your 1.

Essentially, it's Jordan vs. Duncan. Supporting casts are pretty close. Stats are even offensively between the two groups (except in rebounds where I kill you), but my team is vastly superior defensively.

Both strong teams, but I think Jordan >>>> Duncan.

[video=youtube_share;FtKnm-Sf7t8]https://youtu.be/FtKnm-Sf7t8

 

[Jazz and Utes]

Stats don't convince me honestly on anything, when I look at everyone's team I literally having seen a lot of everyone of these players I personally just visualize what a team of certain players look like on the court which is the main reason why I wanted to get into this contest, and when I put Ellis' team on the court and I see MJ with Scottie, and you give that duo Gary Payton and Patrick Ewing it's over. We seriously should've done 13 teams and just auto slotted Ellis into the championship game and let everyone fight for a chance to lose to him. Good job Ellis.

 

[spycam1]

Stats don't convince me honestly on anything, when I look at everyone's team I literally having seen a lot of everyone of these players I personally just visualize what a team of certain players look like on the court which is the main reason why I wanted to get into this contest, and when I put Ellis' team on the court and I see MJ with Scottie, and you give that duo Gary Payton and Patrick Ewing it's over. We seriously should've done 13 teams and just auto slotted Ellis into the championship game and let everyone fight for a chance to lose to him. Good job Ellis.

His team has its issues. He's actually losing right now.

 

[Elizah Huge]

Essentially, it's Jordan vs. Duncan. Supporting casts are pretty close. Stats are even offensively between the two groups (except in rebounds where I kill you), but my team is vastly superior defensively.

Both strong teams, but I think Jordan >>>> Duncan.

Not sure about this matchup yet, but I disagree with that statement. Tim Duncan is widely regarded as the top PF ever. It's definitely Jordan > Duncan.

 

[Coach Ellis]

Not sure about this matchup yet, but I disagree with that statement. Tim Duncan is widely regarded as the top PF ever. It's definitely Jordan > Duncan.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Duncan isn't even in my top 5 and MJ is the best player ever by a wide margin.

 

[Elizah Huge]

We'll have to agree to disagree. Duncan isn't even in my top 5 and MJ is the best player ever by a wide margin.

Duncan is top-8 at the worst. We will have to agree to disagree because it's not a wide margin, while nobody will ever say LeBron is better than MJ, he is creeping up on him. Only thing holding LeBron back is his 2-4 Finals record against Jordan's 6-0.