Amazon Has First Successful Unionization Effort
- Thread starter Gameface
- Start date
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
One can only hope. Unionization brings many benefits.
1. Better wages and benefits
2. Better working conditions
3. A sense of identity and unity
4. Protection for the most vulnerable. I know of a teacher I once worked with who was recently doxxed online by Natalie Cline, a state school board member here in Utah. She was interviewed by the principal, district, and local school board member and was found to have done nothing wrong. The district invited the state school board member who doxxed her to converse. She never did. Throughout the process this teacher was harassed. She needed to hire legal counsel, go to therapy, and even needed protection/security for a time. Who paid for it? Fortunately for her, the union. Without that? She would’ve been on her own.
Of course, unions can sometimes become bloated and too powerful. That’s where balance is needed. But since we’ve seen 40 years of union decline, I think it’s way past overdue for organized labor to strike back with the exception of police unions. They’re way too powerful and neither political party want to touch them.
I find it interesting that the political party that pretends to be populist and complain nonstop about “elites” does nothing but pass tax cuts for the richest and attack unions. Wish they’d make up their mind. It’s hard to be pro working class without supporting organized labor.
1. Better wages and benefits
2. Better working conditions
3. A sense of identity and unity
4. Protection for the most vulnerable. I know of a teacher I once worked with who was recently doxxed online by Natalie Cline, a state school board member here in Utah. She was interviewed by the principal, district, and local school board member and was found to have done nothing wrong. The district invited the state school board member who doxxed her to converse. She never did. Throughout the process this teacher was harassed. She needed to hire legal counsel, go to therapy, and even needed protection/security for a time. Who paid for it? Fortunately for her, the union. Without that? She would’ve been on her own.
Of course, unions can sometimes become bloated and too powerful. That’s where balance is needed. But since we’ve seen 40 years of union decline, I think it’s way past overdue for organized labor to strike back with the exception of police unions. They’re way too powerful and neither political party want to touch them.
I find it interesting that the political party that pretends to be populist and complain nonstop about “elites” does nothing but pass tax cuts for the richest and attack unions. Wish they’d make up their mind. It’s hard to be pro working class without supporting organized labor.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
Speaking anecdotally, I worked in a restaurant throughout college. I’d routinely work 13+ hr shifts without any breaks or food. Not because I didn’t want them, but literally because that’s how managers treat college labor. Keep that in mind when you’re at a restaurant. If you’re experiencing poor service? It’s probably because the management is ****** and they’re overworking cooks, hostesses, and servers.
One autumn we went through a bad stretch. the chimney for the main grill became clogged and it smoked everyone in the back meal prep area out and Management refused to fix it. I remember my eyes burning when we went in the back. It was awful. In addition to the unhealthy smoke, Schedules weren’t accommodating our college class schedules leaving us to find subs or miss class. Lastly, the water heater was broken. Servers and kitchen staff expressed concern with our dishes not being properly sanitized and again, the management didn’t care. One night a large number of servers and cooks got together and made a list of demands or else we’d stage a walk out. The chimney and water heater were suddenly fixed and I personally never had another problem with the schedule.
Funny how organizing works, doesn’t it? Ultimately, consumers benefited with better service and sanitized dishes.
One can only assume had we been unionized, we wouldn’t have worked long grueling shifts without breaks and worked in dangerous and unhealthy conditions.
One autumn we went through a bad stretch. the chimney for the main grill became clogged and it smoked everyone in the back meal prep area out and Management refused to fix it. I remember my eyes burning when we went in the back. It was awful. In addition to the unhealthy smoke, Schedules weren’t accommodating our college class schedules leaving us to find subs or miss class. Lastly, the water heater was broken. Servers and kitchen staff expressed concern with our dishes not being properly sanitized and again, the management didn’t care. One night a large number of servers and cooks got together and made a list of demands or else we’d stage a walk out. The chimney and water heater were suddenly fixed and I personally never had another problem with the schedule.
Funny how organizing works, doesn’t it? Ultimately, consumers benefited with better service and sanitized dishes.
One can only assume had we been unionized, we wouldn’t have worked long grueling shifts without breaks and worked in dangerous and unhealthy conditions.
I’m not sure a Union would work for restaurant workers. Isn’t that a pretty transient type of job? No one sticks around very long? I wouldn’t join a Union for any job that wasn’t my long term full time career.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
Yes, It would for sure be much harder to form. You’re right, there is significant turnover due to it not being many people’s choice for a career. However, The point wasn’t whether it was realistic or not to unionize. The point was organizing for that brief period brought about significant change for the better. Changes that the management would’ve ignored had they not been threatened by their workforce organizing and walking out. And had we been unionized, I believe we would’ve been treated much better. Probably not realistic though. Although, don’t service workers in Nevada belong to unions? So it might be possible in places where the service industry is more prevalent?
I believe there are many sectors of our economy that would benefit by unionization. We’ve had five straight decades of union decline. I think it’s time we bring balance back. I think these Amazon workers did the right thing. And believe me, Jeff Besos can afford it.
Al-O-Meter
Well-Known Member
Only if “the most vulnerable” is referring to child molesters who are vulnerable to losing their jobs as teachers for diddling kids. Teacher’s unions facilitated the molesting of children over, and over by making it nearly impossible to fire teachers caught molesting kids.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390443437504577547313612049308
The continued molesting of children by union-protected teachers got so bad in California that the state legislature got involved to write a new law to stop it. Naturally the teacher’s unions, the most powerful and richest union in the state, poured a boatload of campaign contribution money into “their” reps to get the bill killed.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2012/06/28/defeat-of-calif-teacher-bill-shows-union-power/
Like anything, there are pros and cons to Unions.
Job security is higher, but the ability to get promoted as an individual for great performance is less likely (as unions generally negotiate to promote based on seniority, which many have seen can keep bad apples in schools and police forces). Employers will use the Union as a scapegoat or middleman if you make complaints about certain things (talk to your union rep, or we have to do this as it is required by the CBA).
Employee protections will protect crappy employees too, so the good employees may have increased stress from having to carry the poor performers. Those who pay dues may benefit those that choose not to. Some businesses end up relocating to more economical labor markets (Boeing has moved a huge amount of production to South Carolina to the detriment of Union workers in WA). Hostess shut down due to inability to bargain, etc.
Unions have created amazing strides in work quality, but generally the popularity of unions has declined.
I am not pro or anti union, but unionization is not the best for some jobs. For Amazon warehouse employees, it likely makes a lot of sense as they likely need warehouses in every state, so the Boeing strategy is less likely.
Job security is higher, but the ability to get promoted as an individual for great performance is less likely (as unions generally negotiate to promote based on seniority, which many have seen can keep bad apples in schools and police forces). Employers will use the Union as a scapegoat or middleman if you make complaints about certain things (talk to your union rep, or we have to do this as it is required by the CBA).
Employee protections will protect crappy employees too, so the good employees may have increased stress from having to carry the poor performers. Those who pay dues may benefit those that choose not to. Some businesses end up relocating to more economical labor markets (Boeing has moved a huge amount of production to South Carolina to the detriment of Union workers in WA). Hostess shut down due to inability to bargain, etc.
Unions have created amazing strides in work quality, but generally the popularity of unions has declined.
I am not pro or anti union, but unionization is not the best for some jobs. For Amazon warehouse employees, it likely makes a lot of sense as they likely need warehouses in every state, so the Boeing strategy is less likely.
I have enjoyed the work environment more in places that didn't have unions than the one place I worked that did have a union. That's just one experience but I would be hesitant to work at another unionized job. I would have to research that union as much as I'd have to research the company before I could accept a position.
I think Amazon has harsh work conditions for a lot of their employees, especially order pullers in their warehouses. Seems like the kind of job a person can't do for a lifetime because eventually the work is going to break your body down and you won't be able to meet the performance standards. To me this is another reason to stop the system where we get medical coverage from our employer. Many people sacrifice their bodies for their employer, eventually have to find other work that often doesn't pay as well because they are leaving their established profession for something they aren't experienced in and therefore something that doesn't require specialized training or experience. Then they either don't get insurance at their new lower paying job or they get worse insurance for more money and significantly more of their income proportionally.
I don't think unions are the answer. I think labor laws and national health care is the answer. I'm not opposed to unions and I think if a group of employees wants to be in a union more power to them.
I think Amazon has harsh work conditions for a lot of their employees, especially order pullers in their warehouses. Seems like the kind of job a person can't do for a lifetime because eventually the work is going to break your body down and you won't be able to meet the performance standards. To me this is another reason to stop the system where we get medical coverage from our employer. Many people sacrifice their bodies for their employer, eventually have to find other work that often doesn't pay as well because they are leaving their established profession for something they aren't experienced in and therefore something that doesn't require specialized training or experience. Then they either don't get insurance at their new lower paying job or they get worse insurance for more money and significantly more of their income proportionally.
I don't think unions are the answer. I think labor laws and national health care is the answer. I'm not opposed to unions and I think if a group of employees wants to be in a union more power to them.
One Brow
Well-Known Member
How did convicted child molesters keep paying union dues while in prison? How were they able to keep teaching while in prison? What happened to administrative leave/other duties? Or, are you talking about accused child molester who are still innocent in the eyes of the law, and thus entitled to the protection due any other innocent person?
There's an intelligent discussion to be had regarding unions, and in particular teacher's unions. You only have to look at the lives of pre-unionized teachers to understand why teachers support unions so strongly. However, rather than engage in such a discussion, you try to short-circuit it by pulling out 'child molester', as if it wasn't a problem in private schools. It's a base and ugly tactic.
fishonjazz
Well-Known Member
Contributor
2018 Award Winner
2019 Award Winner
2020-21 Award Winner
2022 Award Winner
2023 Award Winner
Lol
I have managed in industrial settings in both union and non-union environments, and managed through a union transition. I can tell you this is a far more complicated issue than anyone would have you believe. There was a time when unions were absolutely necessary, because we had very few laws protecting workers on the books. So in the early 20th century they were the only way for the regular workers to hold the employer accountable at all. Of course they also created some of the most corrupt partnerships between organized crime and politicians ever known, that still persists to this day - anybody found Jimmy Hoffa yet? Now with the laws surrounding how we treat employees there are very few companies, and even fewer entire industries, where it is needed any more, and arguably even fewer where it is beneficial at all. Hostess, if you remember, had to shut down because the union refused to negotiate with them to help them stave off bankruptcy. When they couldn't get anything approved through the union, Hostess had no choice and filed bankruptcy and 18k people or so lost their jobs.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the most important thing to a union is the dues. Not the workers, but the dues it collects. I was at a company and we were negotiating for a new contract. We wanted to make it optional for people to have to choose to have dues taken straight from their check, or to pay the union directly. We had had a lot of people complain about this and they said the union refused to listen to them about it, so we took it on as part of our agenda. The union was VEHEMENTLY against giving people that choice. So they actually accepted delaying a raise for a year and a minor increase in passed-along benefits costs to the employees rather than give the employees the choice to have the dues taken from their check or not. They gave up stuff for the workers to continue forcing the workers to have the dues taken from their check. Not sure how that benefits the workers.
I was at a company where there was a big hubbub because the union fought to protect a guy who was sexually harassing women at work. He was laosian (laotian? from laos...) and he was talking to the laosian women in their language saying horrible things. About 8 of them filed a major complaint and we took action. We involved the union in the investigation, of course, as required. We found, among other terrible things, that he had been witnessed slipping a used condom into his primary target's locker. We got with the union and wanted to fire the guy. They refused. They said he was only doing this because he was spurned and it was ok in his culture or some such ********. They said, hey you are a big company, just move him somewhere else. We refused. This went all the way to arbitration. It got out to the floor, not through us but through a union shop steward who was pissed about it, and the union had a minor uprising that they refused to fire the guy. The arbitrator sided with us and we fired the guy. Guess what? It turned out that the union had a clause that paid them extra if they had a certain percentage of minority workers and allowed them to increase their dues. They didn't want to lose a minority employee for this reason. Sounds great for the workers, right? I have a lot more stories like this, from my own experience and from people I know. Including from my cousin who has been in a union environment for his entire career and says he hates it (he is a worker, he was a shop steward for a long time too, with the teamsters and a couple other unions).
Now there are so many jobs available, and companies compete more on benefits and culture than they do on pay any more really, that unions are largely obsolete. Don't like a company, or they don't pay enough. ****'em and move on. Easy peasy. Vote for what the company does by where you choose to work. Believe me, this works. I have been in many strategy meetings discussing how we improve retention and it always centers around providing a better work environment, increasing pay, etc. There are some companies and industries that are so heavily unionized it just won't ever change, and especially in closed-shop states, this will likely never change. But I have serious doubts that many unions do very much at all to improve anything for workers beyond what the competition for workers among companies does anyway. You better believe we NEVER try to get people to work through breaks, or to pay them less than they are owed, or to cut their pay arbitrarily, or to simply cut pay for no reason than the bottom line, or work them ungodly hours in a row, or anything else unions claim they can improve, because we value our employees and I do not want to continually be training new people.
I worked at amazon. I can tell you it is a meat-grinder, there is zero doubt. Even for higher level leadership. At the facility/site leader level even we had double digit turnover every year. People left in droves. But they came in droves too, because amazon always paid more and frankly working there carried a certain cachet. I have many friends still working there and I can tell you they have had a concerted effort over the entire life of the company to relentlessly drive improvements in efficiency. This is what makes it possible for them to do what they do, deliver in ways previously unthinkable. But it has another side-benefit for the company. They take almost no time to train anyone and get them up to speed. For me, in my current company, we have about a 4 day training curve, then a 3 day ramp-up curve. That is 7 business days to get people up to required productivity rates. In most amazon roles, that is 1-3 days. That's it. Simplify and invest (or in amazon's case, create from scratch) the right technology and it becomes simply plug and play. So now they can ride the edge of legality when it comes to how they treat employees and if you leave, they don't give a ****, the droves coming in behind you will fully replace you in 3 days. So they do things like work people to literally 1 minute before the time they must provide a 2nd lunch to workers (12.5 hours in California) and then send everyone home. Get the max work with the minimum time given back. In some states, like Utah, there is no law governing breaks - by the way, no matter what you might think about it, there is no federal law governing giving people breaks, other than lunch breaks, those laws are set by the states - so in Utah you do not have to give a break AT ALL, if you don't want to. Pretty much 100% of all companies do because it will drive people away. I know in a couple of other similar states, amazon sites started up then offered no breaks until they saw a certain percent of turnover, then they added one break, then waited for turnover to climb again, then added another one. This is the way they tend to operate, riding that edge to squeeze every ounce of competetive advantage out of their workforce. They are also militant about productivity rates, and they are good about obscuring levels of discipline to keep people working hard riding a phantom edge of getting fired. Talk about a stressful environment!
But they pay really well, and their bennies are solid, largely due to economies of scale. They get in with a benefits provider where amazon is 80% of their business so then amazon can dictate rates, not negotiate. But they are definitely not an easy place to work. I am therefore not surprised they finally had a successful union push. They are probably one of the companies that needed it. And I do think this will cascade. It is going to hit other sites. Also I would not be surprised to see amazon shut down sites rather than take on a union at some point. They are big enough to just absorb that if they have to, barely a blip on the radar. They will just work people in a neighboring site twice as hard to make up for it!
I can also tell you this, I am 99% certain that all senior leadership at the site that went union were fired. Amazon pushes harder on anti-union activities than any company I have ever worked for, and they will hold the site leadership fully accountable for losing that fight.
TL/DR - unions are not needed anymore, except when they are
I think the public service sphere is about the only ecosystem remaining where unions are not just beneficial but absolutely necessary. If only just because anything ultimately managed by politicians is bound to crash and burn at some point, and teachers et al need to be shielded form the firestorm.
The place I'm working now, non union, gave people in the Utah area an out of cycle cost of living raise the month before I was hired and last month they gave everyone in the field I'm in another significant raise, I got 9.5%, and there was no major push that I'm aware of by the employees to make that happen. The company wanted to be more competitive in attracting new employees and have better retention.
The place I just left had the mechanics put together a proposal to increase our wages by $5/hr I think. The union half heartedly handed our proposal over to management and the next week word came back, the time to negotiate for a pay increase is during the contract renewal negotiation which is a couple years away. Word on the street was that the company more or less offered a pay increase for mechanics in the last CBA negotiations and the union threw that back on the table to push for something else that mattered to them more. The union didn't really like the mechanics much, most of us weren't in the union and most of us felt like we didn't need the union as we were skilled labor and had really good job security there or many other places if we didn't like it there. After they rejected the pay increase they lost a lot of mechanics who had been there for anywhere from 8 to 15 or more years, myself included.
I just got a 5% raise this week and am getting a 3.5% cost of living in July. By far the best in my 7 years working for the State. We have a employees association that lobbies the legislature for us.
Sent from my SM-A426U using JazzFanz mobile app
Sent from my SM-A426U using JazzFanz mobile app
gandalfe
Well-Known Member
I got a 3% in Feb (not technically a COLA, just a "we're not paying your position specifically competitively" adjustment), and then a 23% for my promotion I just got. Not that that's related (we're not union, altho a bunch of the nursing and maintenance staff are) but I wanted to brag.
So i work for a major government employer, when I started there 15 years ago the workforce had a significantly higher percentage of unionised employees compared to the rest of the work force. We also had some excellent delegates and activists, since then widespread corruption has been uncovered in the union, cash deals between union officials and management, wholesale embezzlement of union funds for personal use, among a whole bunch of other ****. It all came to a head and the union was basically torn apart, new management were installed who are frankly impotent, activists left the union and in the end we lost out. On top of that intervention from the Australian Council of Trade Unions didn't happen because of the ring wing links the Union had with the Labor party. The consequence of this has been continual backward steps for us workers. After two years of being front-line COVID workers (front-line heroes) we were offered and the majority accepted a 2 percent pay raise (below CPI) our union and its corruption has completely ****ed us. My pay has increased by less than 1,000 dollars a year in 15 years despite the fact that I'm now a middle manger. In terms of cost of living its a nightmare, the cost of housing has nearly trebled in this period, most of your discretionary expenses have doubled, our wages have not changed.
Basically, all good ideas are ruined by corruption. Everywhere.
People are awful.
Sent from my SM-A426U using JazzFanz mobile app
People are awful.
Sent from my SM-A426U using JazzFanz mobile app
16 million has been stolen from my union. That not being enough, one of the architects of that theft did a deal to do her own members out of millions in back pack for a side payment into a union account only she controlled. This sort of **** went on constantly. 30 years ago they'd have all been beaten within an inch of their lives, now not even half of the guilty parties are in prison.
Douchebag K
Well-Known Member
2% ???wtf
Yeah mate, complete joke, VHA didn't even pretend to negotiate. Union being gutless should have brought in work bans during COVID, we had the ***** over a barrel, they were too busy advocating for unvaccinated workers to give a **** about our pay. That useless Labor senator that died a couple of weeks ago was from our union, apparently she didn't know that being friendly with the far right of the liberal party could be an issue for her in her own party.
Two years living in isolation from my family, wrestling ***** with covid on a near daily basis, experiencing significant symptoms of PTSD and by the end of this EBA, I'd get paid more to walk around a ****ing shopping centre. I can get RPL'd for a bunch of qualifications, honestly need to, there is absolutely no future in doing this ****.