Appropriate Age for a Gun?

[Gameface]

I'll do a little overshare.

A few years ago I was unemployed. Related to that there was stress in my relationship and I was unhappy in general. I also had a child entering their teens.

I've been a pretty strong gun advocate on these forums for years. I still do generally advocate for gun rights, but I've softened on a few points.

Anyway, I owned several guns. I've never had a impulse to use them inappropriately and I suppose I could have just leaned on my ego a bit and decided I was just too good to fall into a deep depression or to get set off into a blind rage, or that my son would ever gain access to my guns. But instead I decided that my house was no longer a good place to have guns. I needed the money anyway, so I sold them all.

During that time there was never a specific situation I can look back on and say that it's a good thing they weren't there or else something bad might have happened. But I do think it was the right decision.

As fish mentioned, I think in a different thread, there's really no such thing as a "good guy." None of us are all good or all bad. No one. And none of us are the same person throughout our entire life. It's possible one day for something to shake you so hard that your values, your perspective, everything, is suddenly different than it was before.

 

[franklin]

Your skewing the statistics but that is besides the point. It is the second leading cause of death for teenagers in Utah 3rd across the USA. By your same logic kids shouldn't wear a seat belt. Both are needless risks. But they are your choice as a parent like many things. It's not codling kids to not give them access to guns.

Making decisions on perceive risk is dumb. Keeping healthy kids from guns is as rational as keeping kids from sex ed class because you think educating them will embolden them (high Saint Cy).


I didn't skew any stat, nor have I questioned any of your numerous claims that have not been sourced.

US suicide rate is 12 per 100,000, and that's across all age groups. Okay, I skewed, it's 1.2 in 1000.

Suicide by gun rates is 49.9%. 0.499 * 1.2 = 0.5988 per 1000.

The suicide rate of 15-24 year olds is 11.9%, so (1000/.119) / 0.5988 = 1 in 14,033 teens and up to 24 year olds*. Again, this is not adjusted for alternate forms of suicide without access to a gun. It also includes 18-24 year olds who can legally purchase a firearm. 20,000 turned out to be a pretty damn good ballpark guess.

*Excludes 10-14 year olds who add 8.37% more to the 15-24 age pool.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Making decisions on perceive risk is dumb. Keeping healthy kids from guns is as rational as keeping kids from sex ed class because you think educating them will embolden them (high Saint Cy).

Your changing the argument. I have never once said to keep kids away from guns, I have said the opposite. I fully support teaching kids about guns and letting them go out shooting and have said so in here many times. I have said to keep guns locked up and not give them free access to those locks. That is a huge difference.

Taking unnecessary risks for 0 reason is very dumb. Such as not putting on a seat belt, would you not put your kid in a seatbelt or car seat as a baby so they are not coddled? Would you let a baby or small child around poisonous chemicals, fire or a cliff so they are not coddled. Those are risks you can take as an adult but it seems silly to put your kids at risk for no reason. You comparing it to sex ed is not a close comparison or related at all. A better comparison would be for me to tell you not to teach guns about kids or let them around them is the same as not letting them take sex ed. I have not said that nor is that the same thing. Which is not what I have said or argued once.

Statistics are besides the point. Your teenagers are at a much higher risk than that but even if its less its still a silly unnecessary risk to give a kid free access to guns. Why would you simply not lock them up? I think you are just arguing to argue though.

But lets look at some more statistics for that arguments sake.If you have an un-locked gun in your house your teenagers are 10X more likely to commit suicide.

Here is some good info for those that want to look at it about guns and suicide:

https://www.bradycampaign.org/the-link-between-suicide-and-guns

https://www.bradycampaign.org/the-link-between-suicide-and-guns-availability

Since many suicides are impulsive, separating someone from the means to self-harm takes away their ability to act on what otherwise might have been a fleeting impulse. Suicidal crises are often triggered by an immediate stressor, such as the loss of a job or the breakup of a relationship. However, the urge to act is fairly short lived, typically lasting a few minutes to a few hours.

Suicide is the leading cause of death among teenagers and is rising at very rapid rates here in Utah. Leaving a guns unlocked puts your kid 10X higher risk of committing suicide. Which takes a likelihood of about 1 in 100 which could be higher if your teenager is a male and white. Giving them a key to the lock and keeping it locked slightly slows them down but still has a 5X higher chance of committing suicide. Some report those numbers higher for certain groups:

For young people without mental illness, a loaded gun in the home was found to increase suicide risk 32 times.

So based on that statistic do the math on that likelihood of having a white male teenager who has no signs of mental illness and the statistics for having access to an unlocked gun it sky rockets their likelihood to commit suicide.

It is down right stupid to have a gun in your house unlocked when you have a teenager or really at all. If everyone locked up their guns we would save a lot of lives. What is the benefit of an unlocked gun or giving your kids keys to the gun safe?

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

Any way to quantify or prove this statement?? There's tons of countries out there with kids who never have access to guns-- so you can start with a comparison there

This is obviously an opinion based on personal experience/perceptions, etc. But your point is well-taken. There are many ways to teach children responsibility, humility, respect and awareness that don't involve guns, and as such, I'd be hesitant to advocate for gun ownership as a means to accomplish these objectives. But, hey, whatever works for you.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

For the record, I don't have any age in mind as to when it is appropriate to introduce children to guns. It's like any other thing, the best age to start something probably depends on the child. Hell, I've seen kids no older than 4-5 skiing the cirque at Snowbird, something I didn't have the guts, or better said the skill, to do until into my 30s. Some kids can handle things at a much earlier age than others. So, I guess the conclusion here is for parents to know their child and use common sense. After that, have at it.

 

[franklin]

Your changing the argument. I have never once said to keep kids away from guns, I have said the opposite. I fully support teaching kids about guns and letting them go out shooting and have said so in here many times. I have said to keep guns locked up and not give them free access to those locks. That is a huge difference.

I don't know how you read it that way so let me put it as simple as possible: Keeping guns locked up for fears of suicide is a perceived risk that does not exist to any meaningful extent. 1 in 15,000 (at minimum) tells me kids can have guns.

 

[franklin]

So based on that statistic do the math on that likelihood of having a white male teenager who has no signs of mental illness and the statistics for having access to an unlocked gun it sky rockets their likelihood to commit suicide.

It is down right stupid to have a gun in your house unlocked when you have a teenager or really at all. If everyone locked up their guns we would save very few lives. What is the benefit of an unlocked gun or giving your kids keys to the gun safe?

Fixed that for ya.

Going from almost zero to just slightly less than almost zero does not count as "skyrocketing".


I found this interesting from your Anti-Gun Brady Center To Prevent Gun Violence think tank link:

Third, the presence of a gun in the home increases the likelihood of suicide, regardless of method of storage, type of gun, or number of guns in the home.30 Finally, if a gun is not available in the home, it is rarely used as the method of suicide.31

So, regardless of whether you lock your guns up or not, your children are at increased risk of suicide (from near zero to next to near zero). That leads me to believe there is probably another correlation. Here's one:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3114154/

By the "don't take unnecessary risks" opinion, anybody living in Denver or SLC should move asap.

 

[Ron Mexico]

I don't know how you read it that way so let me put it as simple as possible: Keeping guns locked up for fears of suicide is a perceived risk that does not exist to any meaningful extent. 1 in 15,000 (at minimum) tells me kids can have guns.

To be honest I am mostly posting this for other people since you made up your mind a long time ago to let you kids have guns and not to keep them locked up in your house.

Could not disagree more. That number is incorrect and that logic is silly. That number reflects a household that has taken precautions and does not have a gun or its locked up. Taking basic safety precautions, when there is no reason not to, for your own sake and kids sake is just common sense. But they are your kids and you have the right to do that.

In Utah the number is 5 out of a 1000 die from gun suicide per year. That number is 32X higher if you do not have a gun locked up and your kid has no signs of mental illness. That number doubles if it is a male, it doubles if he is white. It is the leading cause of death in Utah for kids his age.

So the minimum statistic (easily argued higher but hard to tell) is 160/1000 (32 times 5) or 16/100 if you have an unlocked gun in your house and your child is mentally stable and it on the rise so far tripling every year since 07.

But based on your perceived risk that you feel is not meaningful (I would call #1 cause of death in that age group meaningful)you should not worry or do anything to protect your kid from harm, death or sexual abuse since chances are it wont happen.

But I think there is no downside to a lock on a gun, seatbelt on a kid, not letting your kid have sleepovers with strange adult men just basics like that.

What does locking a gun prevent a kid from doing? Something good?

 

[franklin]

You're posting false correlations and will continue to do so. Here's a graphic showing a) how silly it is to use false correlations (to a non-existent problem), and b) completely debunking your correlation altogether:

No guns didn't deter suicide in Japan, France, etc. People who want to kill themselves will. As I pointed out already, your own think tank said as much.

 

[franklin]

Could not disagree more. That number is incorrect and that logic is silly. That number reflects a household that has taken precautions and does not have a gun or its locked up. Taking basic safety precautions, when there is no reason not to, for your own sake and kids sake is just common sense. But they are your kids and you have the right to do that.

You mean like putting the mattresses on the floor and not having any stairs? Because those kill a helluva lot of people every year.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

You're posting false correlations and will continue to do so. Here's a graphic showing a) how silly it is to use false correlations (to a non-existent problem), and b) completely debunking your correlation altogether:

No guns didn't deter suicide in Japan, France, etc. People who want to kill themselves will. As I pointed out already, your own think tank said as much.

For those countries, Franklin, do you have any additional stats to rates among families that lock up their guns vs. those who don't?

If you don't, that graph is pretty irrelevant.

 

[Ron Mexico]

You're posting false correlations and will continue to do so. Here's a graphic showing a) how silly it is to use false correlations (to a non-existent problem), and b) completely debunking your correlation altogether:

No guns didn't deter suicide in Japan, France, etc. People who want to kill themselves will. As I pointed out already, your own think tank said as much.

The info from that I posted from there was from the CDC. Other countries and their gun situations are very different.

Why are kids 32X more likely to commit suicide if there is an unlocked gun in their house then?