Game Thread Apr 07, 2021 08:00PM MT: Jazz at Suns

Added to Calendar: 04-07-21


Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
Last night felt like a double loss... if I had an online gambling account I'd be betting against us tonight. Mike will surely sit... Portland has given us trouble... back end of a back to back in which we played overtime... we are six point favorites... that feels like free money.
 


FAILED STATE

Well-Known Member
True. I am not knocking Rudy, just poiting out CP3 has his #. He knows how to score on him. It is simply a bad matchup.
Gobert was the key ingredient that ended the team CP3 is most closely associated with. CP gets his buckets, but Rudy needs a better system and better players than he’s had recently. It ain’t about Rudy.
 

Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
Gobert was the key ingredient that ended the team CP3 is most closely associated with. CP gets his buckets, but Rudy needs a better system and better players than he’s had recently. It ain’t about Rudy.
Especially now that CP has slowed down... Rudy can guard him on the perimeter and can come out to bother his shot... he needs the guy behind him to either tag Ayton to stop the lob or box him out on the miss... we can't do either so Rudy is stuck in between. CP is ****ing automatic from midrange so it might be worth betting that they might miss the connection a time or two and turn the ball over. IDK
 

Hekate

Well-Known Member
I agree with you... will say it isn't just on Rudy though. Rudy can bother the mid range but he has to come to high which means someone else needs to cover his guy or box out the miss... When CP drives all the way to the hoop he usually isn't trying to score but if he takes Rudy with him then he can drop the alley oop to Ayton.

Rudy is amazing... the narrative that he gets played off the court in the playoffs is ********... the narrative should be the limitations on this type of gimmicky system and having this many non defenders around him will limit the playoff effectiveness of the defense.
I don't think it is the system. Gobert gives players enough time to recover, they just can't do it consistently. We have been doing late switches much more this year if the primary defender can't recover on time. It's a different look and has been mostly effective but I don't think that is something you can do more of with the personnel we have. I wonder what would happen if we took the easy way out and switched everything.
 

FAILED STATE

Well-Known Member
This system also kind of makes him the impact guy he is though... so don't feel too bad for him. He has his own limitations and last night there were several 50/50 rebounds he didn't get that cost us. It would be awesome to see him play with a guy like CP that can find the big on the lob from seemingly every angle. CP is one of one though.
Yes. And he could have said, “I’ve cherished the opportunity... Thank you and au revoir.” And then left to become the King of French-Speaking Canada and the King of Nick Nurses’ defense.
 
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Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
I don't think it is the system. Gobert gives players enough time to recover, they just can't do it consistently. We have been doing late switches much more this year if the primary defender can't recover on time. It's a different look and has been mostly effective but I don't think that is something you can do more of with the personnel we have. I wonder what would happen if we took the easy way out and switched everything.
The system forces teams to shoot midrange shots... if you go over that means that those will be lightly contested unless the defender has solid length... our guys just don't. I think most of the championship teams have guys that can kill it in the midrange.

I think it would be okay if got more deflections, steals, and generally were more physical with guys on the perimeter. Needs to be more mixing and matching... CP can't be given automatic reads.
 

Hekate

Well-Known Member
The system forces teams to shoot midrange shots... if you go over that means that those will be lightly contested unless the defender has solid length... our guys just don't. I think most of the championship teams have guys that can kill it in the midrange.

I think it would be okay if got more deflections, steals, and generally were more physical with guys on the perimeter. Needs to be more mixing and matching... CP can't be given automatic reads.
You kinda have to give up something. Unless you have 3-4 great switch defenders and even then 1 of them has to be your center. Most teams also have guys that can kill you from 3.

I think the scheme is fine. When Oni plays you see him recover quicker than others. It's mostly an effort and mentality thing. Size matters but it's hard to play guys like Craig over Clarkson or Bogey. Just don't give up on the play after the initial screen like we do recently and it's days and nights. We don't have to lockdown teams with the offense we are supposed to have.

Deflections are getting on the same level as steals with how often it gets used now.

I get being more physical but it really has to come with defensive understanding. Like last night Mitchell was pushing and sticking to Booker and Booker just faked a screen and opened up Cam Johnson because Mitchell wasn't seeing anything else. Ingles needs to sag to contain. Clarkson can be feisty but gets easily shaken off etc.

I get the allure of playing multiple schemes but Raptors imploded this year trying to play the same way with Baynes, Siakam and Boucher at center.
 

FAILED STATE

Well-Known Member
The system forces teams to shoot midrange shots... if you go over that means that those will be lightly contested unless the defender has solid length... our guys just don't. I think most of the championship teams have guys that can kill it in the midrange.

I think it would be okay if got more deflections, steals, and generally were more physical with guys on the perimeter. Needs to be more mixing and matching... CP can't be given automatic reads.
Maybe people will listen to you when you say this stuff? I predicted the broad outlines of last night’s outcomes (on the defensive end) from a mile away. Frustrating.
 

Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
You kinda have to give up something. Unless you have 3-4 great switch defenders and even then 1 of them has to be your center. Most teams also have guys that can kill you from 3.

I think the scheme is fine. When Oni plays you see him recover quicker than others. It's mostly an effort and mentality thing. Size matters but it's hard to play guys like Craig over Clarkson or Bogey. Just don't give up on the play after the initial screen like we do recently and it's days and nights. We don't have to lockdown teams with the offense we are supposed to have.

Deflections are getting on the same level as steals with how often it gets used now.

I get being more physical but it really has to come with defensive understanding. Like last night Mitchell was pushing and sticking to Booker and Booker just faked a screen and opened up Cam Johnson because Mitchell wasn't seeing anything else. Ingles needs to sag to contain. Clarkson can be feisty but gets easily shaken off etc.

I get the allure of playing multiple schemes but Raptors imploded this year trying to play the same way with Baynes, Siakam and Boucher at center.
I agree that you have to give something up... mid range makes the most sense... issue is when it becomes too easy and predictable imo. Which is where adding one disruptive perimeter defender to the mix could help.

I think the system works if executed well and with some better pieces. I think too many of our guys give up too much too easily and Rudy is a crutch/excuse. Its a bit mechanical at times and needs a chaos element that we don't seem to have. Ricky and Thabo were able to bring that... I wonder if we don't have the length to do that now. There are trade offs and generally I think you should choose offense over defense.

The other issue with the one system concept is that the non-Rudy centers seem to struggle with it. We honestly might be better off having a guy like Kelly Olynyk at the 5 and going all offense on that unit.

I understand why we didn't get Craig... he'd be more of a Niang replacement. We just need an injection of athleticism, physicality, length somewhere in the rotation.

I just think we have to be a little more well rounded or dynamic on the wing. Mike DM and JC are small guards... Niang and Bojan are unathletic shooting 4s, who aren't good enough on the glass at times. We play the same systems no matter who is in the game. There is just too much homogeny for me at times.
 

Handlogten's Heros

Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
Maybe people will listen to you when you say this stuff? I predicted the broad outlines of last night’s outcomes (on the defensive end) from a mile away. Frustrating.
the results of the defense were actually pretty good last night. Mostly because Booker shot so bad.

With CP if he knows what you are going to do and you don't disrupt something then he will **** you up most of the time. Its the same issue I think we had with Denver... Jokic and Murray shot so well... in part because they were so damn comfortable and knew exactly where we'd be and what shots they'd get.

Its a conservative approach that works well in the regular season but won't be as effective in the playoffs unless it has some additional wrinkles. We need more disruption and less "bend but don't break". whether its personnel or scheme... we need just need it.
 

framer

Well-Known Member
the results of the defense were actually pretty good last night. Mostly because Booker shot so bad.

With CP if he knows what you are going to do and you don't disrupt something then he will **** you up most of the time. Its the same issue I think we had with Denver... Jokic and Murray shot so well... in part because they were so damn comfortable and knew exactly where we'd be and what shots they'd get.

Its a conservative approach that works well in the regular season but won't be as effective in the playoffs unless it has some additional wrinkles. We need more disruption and less "bend but don't break". whether its personnel or scheme... we need just need it.

Our defensive scheme was fine. It was our shooting 25% from three and 67% from the line that did us in. We aren't going to do that in very many games, especially at home. We do have ways to mix this up with our current personnel, especially in a playoff series. I wouldn't expect Snyder to roll those out in the regular season though, especially against teams we might face in the playoffs.

Bubble Playoffs aren't going to remotely resemble a rocking Vivint Arena.
 

FAILED STATE

Well-Known Member
the results of the defense were actually pretty good last night. Mostly because Booker shot so bad.

With CP if he knows what you are going to do and you don't disrupt something then he will **** you up most of the time. Its the same issue I think we had with Denver... Jokic and Murray shot so well... in part because they were so damn comfortable and knew exactly where we'd be and what shots they'd get.

Its a conservative approach that works well in the regular season but won't be as effective in the playoffs unless it has some additional wrinkles. We need more disruption and less "bend but don't break". whether its personnel or scheme... we need just need it.
I definitely agree with almost 100% of this. But it seems there is some airspace between you and I when it comes to your first paragraph.

I don’t credit our defense for Booker’s stretches of poor shooting. Maybe I should go back and rewatch—if I were a committed analyst with time on my hands, then I would. Alas, no time available.
 

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