Big Al on Millsap

[Deleted member 848]

TJF's post was discussing "progression" (i.e., development), of which PT is a key component.

Couldn't have your post been much more concise, instead of going onto this Anti-Sloan diatribe that you seem so oft-inclined to do???

 

[Thee Jazz Fan]

Yes, you could be.

Depends on your definition of "couldn't get off the bench," but your errant thinking is the same as what Sloan had about player development. Players from Kobe on down need on-court playing time to develop. Kobe averaged 15.5 MPG across 71 games in his first year and 26 MPG in his second year. Bryant shot less than 42% in his first year and less than 43% in his second year. Then, in his third year, after more than 1000 minutes of court time, his shooting started being legit, never returning below 43% in any year.

Bigs are also very in need of playing time, and I am optimistic that this coaching staff (if there ever is a coaching staff again) will do better at understanding that than the Sloan regime--not that the bar has been placed very high.


. . . unless Hayward would've developed faster if he had gotten consistent PT throughout the season (not that Raja Bell and CJ were consistently demonstrating significantly superior performance to Elder Hayward).

Did Hayward earn his minutes, or maybe, just maybe, did it have something to do in part with coaching philosophy, as evidenced by Hayward being granted at least 10 MPG in 11 of the first 12 games after Corbin took over, vs. a maximum of 5 ten-minute-plus games in a row under the reign of Sloan? I say the latter had something to do with it; consistent with my mantra, Hayward averaged less than 10 minutes per game (including DNPs) under Sloan and 24 MPG (including DNPs) under Corbin.

Such a leap is more than "earning" it or improvement (or the effect of losing D-Will). It is influenced by a focus on giving him the minutes (perhaps more than necessary) to develop. And in the last game of the season, he finished off with 34 points. Very reasonable to infer that he might've had more big nights (just like Fesenko holding serve vs. the Lakers in the playoffs but not having received the court time to be more of a force) if he had been given the PT earlier in the season also, especially given that he started the season with three decent games of ~15 minutes to 25 minutes and then had only two games of >10 minues in the entire month of November. Typical Sloan inconsistency in player management.

I'm glad that the future looks brighter in that regard, but the superior choice was to graciously wave Sloan goodbye years before and then hire Carlisle or Thibodeau or someone else when they were available.

How the hell can you come on here and presume to know what it takes to develop young talent, or how to coach millionaires! Did you play in the NBA, did you make millions of dollars, and spend over twenty years with one organization, lead a team to two NBA Finals, coach two of the greatest players of all time, be inducted to the hall of fame as a coach, in over 20 seasons with the jazz Sloan missed the playoffs all of two or three times are you the one that got the scouts reportes about players, spend hours evaluating players, did you conduct practices every day did you go to team meetings!!! No, you weren't!

We are some of the most blessed fans in the NBA for over twenty years we saw basketball the way it was supposed to be played. You act as though players have a certain right to come in as a hot shot rookies and play 40 minutes a game. Sloan tought his players about hard work if a player wanted to play he needed to work hard in the off season, in practice, if a player didn't, he didn't play. Sloan always put the team before the individual. Since you know nothing about what it takes to be successful as a coach in the NBA don't pretend to know what was better for the jazz.

 

[sepanol]

I could be wrong, but Kobe couldn't get off the bench his first two years. The reallity is we are stacked with above average bigs. I like Kanter and said many times I would've drafted him #1 overall, and think he will be a fantastic player he will have to earn his minutes. Coach will play the players that give the team the best chance to win now, because he wants to keep his job.

Look at Hayward he didn't play more then garbage minutes the first half of the season, and it didn't seem to hurt his progression by years end Hayward earned his minutes, and I have no doubt at some point Kanter will to. Again I'm not a Kanter hater I'm a fan of his. I'm just a realist.

I think, the trade of Deron boosted Haywards confidence as well, i still remember the scene where Deron was shouting at him like a little kid in the phoenix game, was it first game in energysolutions?

 

[InGameStrategy]

How the hell can you come on here and presume to know what it takes to develop young talent, or how to coach millionaires! Did you play in the NBA, did you make millions of dollars, and spend over twenty years with one organization, lead a team to two NBA Finals, coach two of the greatest players of all time, be inducted to the hall of fame as a coach, in over 20 seasons with the jazz Sloan missed the playoffs all of two or three times are you the one that got the scouts reportes about players, spend hours evaluating players, did you conduct practices every day did you go to team meetings!!!

1. This is a message board where fans can play armchair coach, GM, etc.--just like you did with your comments about when Millsap should play.
2. When you have two top-50 players for as long as Sloan did, going to the playoffs every year is the minimum standard.
3. My standing offer to be the Jazz coach for 1/10 of Sloan's salary and to show effective management of NBA millionaires and their playing time remains in effect (although a prerequisite would be for the NBA to be resuscitated first).

We are some of the most blessed fans in the NBA for over twenty years we saw basketball the way it was supposed to be played.

You mean preaching defense but not enforcing it?
You mean the illogical approach to defending the 3?
You mean unleashing anti-gay innuendo behind a player's back?
You mean relegating a 5x5-potential borderline all-star to 4th or 5th option with nary a discussion?
You mean not playing a future All-Star in his rookie year in favor of some minimum-level journeyman named Milt?
You mean the often outright puzzling substitution patterns and team combinations (not to mention the aforementioned ignorance of optimizing player development) that he repeatedly put out there, and then sometimes blaming the players when it didn't work?

You act as though players have a certain right to come in as a hot shot rookies and play 40 minutes a game.

Never advocated anything close to your hyperbole; quite the opposite, as I pointed out the 24 MPG for Hayward's late rookie season might have been too much. Furthermore, I have regularly stated that somewhere between 10 MPG and 15 MPG is the minimum for player development--a claim consistent of my clarification of your statements regarding Jelly Bean's boy and Elder Hayward. If a young player did well in that regular 10 to 15 MPG, then a sound coach and leader would provide more (as long as it did not impinge on the development or maintenance of other players within the rotation).

Sloan tought his players about hard work if a player wanted to play he needed to work hard in the off season, in practice, if a player didn't, he didn't play.

But if a player did so, he didn't necessarily play, either. See Kosta Koufos's rookie season--and Hayward's rookie season, for that matter, when Ty Corbin provided Hayward with substantially more consistent minutes (when it should have been obvious all along that he has the most room to improve at the 2/3 spot) than Sloan did.

Sloan always put the team before the individual.

Sloan put his whims before the individual; see the numerous examples of Sloan's inconsistencies above (and elsewhere).

Since you know nothing about what it takes to be successful as a coach in the NBA don't pretend to know what was better for the jazz.

Pot, meet kettle. It's a message board, dude.

 

[InGameStrategy]

Couldn't have your post been much more concise, instead of going onto this Anti-Sloan diatribe that you seem so oft-inclined to do???

No.

 

[Brown Notes]

How the hell can you come on here and presume to know what it takes to develop young talent, or how to coach millionaires! Did you play in the NBA, did you make millions of dollars, and spend over twenty years with one organization, lead a team to two NBA Finals, coach two of the greatest players of all time, be inducted to the hall of fame as a coach, in over 20 seasons with the jazz Sloan missed the playoffs all of two or three times are you the one that got the scouts reportes about players, spend hours evaluating players, did you conduct practices every day did you go to team meetings!!! No, you weren't!

We are some of the most blessed fans in the NBA for over twenty years we saw basketball the way it was supposed to be played. You act as though players have a certain right to come in as a hot shot rookies and play 40 minutes a game. Sloan tought his players about hard work if a player wanted to play he needed to work hard in the off season, in practice, if a player didn't, he didn't play. Sloan always put the team before the individual. Since you know nothing about what it takes to be successful as a coach in the NBA don't pretend to know what was better for the jazz.

As much as I love Sloan, There were some serious problems in the last 5 years. Kirilenko and Williams were easily the most talented Jazz to be in Utah since Karl Malone and they never worked together. Williams didn't like AK or Sloan, AK didn't like being ignored and Boozer just made all those things worse. Sloan was a great competitor but maybe not a great innovator. I really wish he could have found a way to integrate Williams and AK. Maybe there just wasn't any way.

 

[Brown Notes]

How the hell can you come on here and presume to know what it takes to develop young talent, or how to coach millionaires! Did you play in the NBA, did you make millions of dollars, and spend over twenty years with one organization, lead a team to two NBA Finals, coach two of the greatest players of all time, be inducted to the hall of fame as a coach, in over 20 seasons with the jazz Sloan missed the playoffs all of two or three times are you the one that got the scouts reportes about players, spend hours evaluating players, did you conduct practices every day did you go to team meetings!!! No, you weren't!

We are some of the most blessed fans in the NBA for over twenty years we saw basketball the way it was supposed to be played. You act as though players have a certain right to come in as a hot shot rookies and play 40 minutes a game. Sloan tought his players about hard work if a player wanted to play he needed to work hard in the off season, in practice, if a player didn't, he didn't play. Sloan always put the team before the individual. Since you know nothing about what it takes to be successful as a coach in the NBA don't pretend to know what was better for the jazz.

As much as I love Sloan, There were some serious problems in the last 5 years. Kirilenko and Williams were easily the most talented Jazz to be in Utah since Karl Malone and they never worked together. Williams didn't like AK or Sloan, AK didn't like being ignored and Boozer just made all those things worse. Sloan was a great competitor but maybe not a great innovator. I really wish he could have found a way to integrate Williams and AK.

 

[Deleted member 848]

I think, the trade of Deron boosted Haywards confidence as well, i still remember the scene where Deron was shouting at him like a little kid in the phoenix game, was it first game in energysolutions?

2 Games later Deron was cheering a bunch from the sidelines, after hayward got his first left-handed dunk of the season. People overstate Deron shouting at Hayward in that one game. Though I guess it could be possible that Hayward might have gained some independence after Deron left.