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Big Al ranked 3rd best NBA center- ESPN

Also I don't consider some of these players to be clutch. Rose, Mo Williams, Ellis, Westbrook, Billups. They are all ahead of Jefferson on this list. This list is all about scoring. We know that Jefferson can do that, what we are talking about is overall team effectiveness and win percentages. I would say that Jefferson is very low and possiblky negative for both of those.
 
Look, I am not trying to say that Jefferson is a bad player. I liked that the Jazz went and got him from Minny. I always had this lingering doubt about if he could produce for a winning team. After watching this year I can honestly say that the answer is no, he can't. He is a great guy and I will always cheer for him. In fact I did cheer for him in Minny anytime he was playing someone other than the Jazz. I fought with others when they said that he should not be an all-star because he didn't play for a winning team. I had his back in every argument even until this season ended.

When I started looking back on things his production and his ability to help the team win games became clear to me. I hope the best for Jefferson and I hope that he can help a team win and get into the playoffs. I just don't believe that he can do that unless he has two other go to scorers ahead of him.

My biggest concerns about Jefferson and the Jazz are this. One, his contract is big and his wins are low. We are a small market team and contracts like Jeffersons and AKs hurt the organization. Two, because we have Jefferson that is one more person taking away playing tim from the young players that have potential to be good. Potential is a very dangerous word and most of the time I go with the proven player over the potential player but Jefferson, in a Jazz uniform, has not proved to be more valuable then a high draft pick to me.

I am not trying to change peoples minds about him. People will think what they want to but in the end if you want wins then it is time to look elsewhere. I hope that he cna do some contributing at the beginning of the season so that the Jazz can get some great pieces in return for him before the trade deadline.
 
I always had this lingering doubt about if he could produce for a winning team.

Was he not producing when before the Jazz lost Sloan and DWill? When they were 27-13 or something?

Short window yes. But it does show it's somewhat possible right?

Al has been on some horrid teams, and I realize he is not a franchise player. However he is big and talented. I think he could produce and be a valuable piece on a winning team.
 
When I saw the name Thornton for SAC on the list above Jefferson I knew that this had proved my point. His "clutchness" does not turn into wins. Also, to your miscredit this list is based on a per 48 min of clutchtime. So it doesn't matter how many minutes that Big Al played it was going off of his average.

I just want to point out one more time that this list just proves what I have thought about Al all season long. Thank you dalamon.

a) Thornton played less than half the minutes of Jefferson, along with several other players that are considered "clutch" IE Durant Kobe and the likes.
b) look at the second column in the graph; Total time in "clutch-time". Notice how all of the premier "clutch" players in the NBA log MUCH more minutes (around the realm of AlJeff) than someone like Thornton. Sorry Orangello, but you just proved your own stupidity with this post.
 
Also I don't consider some of these players to be clutch. Rose, Mo Williams, Ellis, Westbrook, Billups. They are all ahead of Jefferson on this list. This list is all about scoring. We know that Jefferson can do that, what we are talking about is overall team effectiveness and win percentages. I would say that Jefferson is very low and possiblky negative for both of those.

Billups isnt clutch? Westbrook isnt clutch? Rose isnt clutch, even though he completely destroyed Deron Williams in the last 2 mins here in Utah in Jerrys last game? Okay.
 
Hate to post consecutive times as opposed to sandwiching it all in one, but to summarize. I just want to say that anyone who blames our losing record on Al Jefferson seriously needs their head examined. Hes our teams best scorer, did not miss a game, and played his heart out until missing the playoffs became a guarantee. He seems to exhibit more loyalty to Utah than other players despite only playing here for a season, and seemed to bring his assists and blocks up as the season progressed.
 
Hate to post consecutive times as opposed to sandwiching it all in one, but to summarize. I just want to say that anyone who blames our losing record on Al Jefferson seriously needs their head examined.
Is anyone blaming our losing record on Al Jefferson alone? I doubt it. But the topic of this thread was whether Jefferson warranted a #3 rating among centers, not whether he was the sole (or even primary) culprit for the Jazz winning woes.

As has been brilliantly pointed out, this ranking appears to ignore (at least partially) defense, as evidenced by the writer not even mentioning D in the description of AJ. Heck, he barely mentioned defense when describing Dwight Howard. That's what you call incomplete journalism. It's as if Boozer himself had ghostwritten the entire article.

Hes our teams best scorer, did not miss a game, and played his heart out until missing the playoffs became a guarantee.
His defense--even before the playoff hopes dimmed--did not equate to playing his heart out. I agree that he is a formidable offensive player, and that he improved significantly on offense over the season. But the C spot needs to be able to defend, perhaps more so than scoring, given that most title teams had a legit defender at the 5 (including this year's champions.)

He seems to exhibit more loyalty to Utah than other players despite only playing here for a season, and seemed to bring his assists and blocks up as the season progressed.
Loyalty? Look where that got us--keeping on a coach who did help to build the franchise but failed to win a ring and, in recent years especially, wasn't even able to enforce his own philosophy, while other coaches who could do so were hired elsewhere and took their teams to contention. The loyalty (and perhaps cost-savings) continued by hiring from within. While I wish Corbin all the best now that he's here, I have not seen that things have changed yet.

It is another positive for Big Al that his passing and blocks have risen. However, blocks are only a part of defense. Gotta protect the paint, and gotta not rest from your awesome offensive performance while you're playing D.
 
Is anyone blaming our losing record on Al Jefferson alone? I doubt it. But the topic of this thread was whether Jefferson warranted a #3 rating among centers, not whether he was the sole (or even primary) culprit for the Jazz winning woes.

Its good that you aren't, but there have been other threads where posters blame our collapse on the addition of such a slack-defending center, even though hes arguably just as good if not better than Memo. Do I think hes currently a #3 Center? No, in fact in if you check this thread https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php?6868-Big-Al-Working-Hard/page5 you will see that I think he at this point could only slightly crack the top ten if you argue enough about it. What my point with these posts is that people who rip on Al, and the fact that we dont need him due to his lack of wins in his past teams seems like a ridiculous criticism to me, along with the whole "black-hole" terminology and the lack of foresight to see how much he has improved over a season alone. To me, it seems very possible that Al Jefferson will not only up his assist totals (Imagine having the ball in your hands, looking away from the basket and seeing Watson, Bell, and Kirilenko on the perimeter; no surprise that Al decided going ISO instead usually) after having players like Burks Hayward Harris and Favors emerging. Also, His blocking capabilities coupled with Favors' stellar defense makes for quite the decent PF/C combo on both sides of the court. Does he have what it takes to become a top 5 Center? Absolutely.

As has been brilliantly pointed out, this ranking appears to ignore (at least partially) defense, as evidenced by the writer not even mentioning D in the description of AJ. Heck, he barely mentioned defense when describing Dwight Howard. That's what you call incomplete journalism. It's as if Boozer himself had ghostwritten the entire article.

Again, I never said Al should be #3

Loyalty? Look where that got us--keeping on a coach who did help to build the franchise but failed to win a ring and, in recent years especially, wasn't even able to enforce his own philosophy, while other coaches who could do so were hired elsewhere and took their teams to contention. The loyalty (and perhaps cost-savings) continued by hiring from within. While I wish Corbin all the best now that he's here, I have not seen that things have changed yet.

You're right, were better off signing players who dont exhibit loyalty. Im not even goint to start on your Sloan criticism.

It is another positive for Big Al that his passing and blocks have risen. However, blocks are only a part of defense. Gotta protect the paint, and gotta not rest from your awesome offensive performance while you're playing D.

I remember reading that Al Jefferson was one of the better On-Ball Defending centers of the NBA. Perhaps having Favors next to him to help with Defense would mean he would have to worry less about switching, and more to sticking to his man. His blocking prowess would prove to be an effective last line of defense if Favors is beaten. So quite frankly, his blocing prowess coupled with our rising future PF could prove beneficial. And in all honesty if Kanter does develop to become better than Al Jefferson, we just spent 1-2 years raising his stock so we can trade him for enough bench players to make a deep playoff run. It makes most sense to develop Al Jefferson this upcoming season as our rookies ease into their roles. Let them fight for a roster spot; losers get traded for other pieces, or delegated to the bench.
 
Its good that you aren't, but there have been other threads where posters blame our collapse on the addition of such a slack-defending center, even though hes arguably just as good if not better than Memo. Do I think hes currently a #3 Center? No, in fact in if you check this thread https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php?6868-Big-Al-Working-Hard/page5 you will see that I think he at this point could only slightly crack the top ten if you argue enough about it. What my point with these posts is that people who rip on Al, and the fact that we dont need him due to his lack of wins in his past teams seems like a ridiculous criticism to me, along with the whole "black-hole" terminology and the lack of foresight to see how much he has improved over a season alone. To me, it seems very possible that Al Jefferson will not only up his assist totals (Imagine having the ball in your hands, looking away from the basket and seeing Watson, Bell, and Kirilenko on the perimeter; no surprise that Al decided going ISO instead usually) after having players like Burks Hayward Harris and Favors emerging. Also, His blocking capabilities coupled with Favors' stellar defense makes for quite the decent PF/C combo on both sides of the court. Does he have what it takes to become a top 5 Center? Absolutely.
Yes, and all it takes is effort--and perhaps the coaching staff enforcing the effort. And that's why Fes (and Elson, too, and maybe Kanter next year) should be/have been used as short-term subs when AJ was dogging it, so that he knows that his playing time isn't guaranteed.

. . .

You're right, were better off signing players who dont exhibit loyalty. Im not even goint to start on your Sloan criticism.
Compared to on-court effectiveness (or on-bench effectiveness, in the case of coaches), loyalty is overrated. What did loyalty to AK get us? A bloated contract probably costing 2x its true value. Loyalty to Karl Malone? Maybe a few million savings here and then, and then a one-way ticket to the Lakers. Loyalty to John Stockton? Significant savings. But there's only one John Stockton. Loyalty to Jerry Sloan? 20+ years of playoff appearances, but unfortunately the Jazz's potential was higher than that when they carried two of the top 50 players of all time for many of those years.

Sinking ship Dalamon said:
I remember reading that Al Jefferson was one of the better On-Ball Defending centers of the NBA. Perhaps having Favors next to him to help with Defense would mean he would have to worry less about switching, and more to sticking to his man. His blocking prowess would prove to be an effective last line of defense if Favors is beaten. So quite frankly, his blocing prowess coupled with our rising future PF could prove beneficial. And in all honesty if Kanter does develop to become better than Al Jefferson, we just spent 1-2 years raising his stock so we can trade him for enough bench players to make a deep playoff run. It makes most sense to develop Al Jefferson this upcoming season as our rookies ease into their roles. Let them fight for a roster spot; losers get traded for other pieces, or delegated to the bench.
Let Al Jefferson "develop"? Isn't nearly 3,000 minutes this year alone (nearly thrice the playing time of Fesenko for his entire career) enough time to "develop"?

Develop, schmevelop. Jefferson is 26 years old and a 7-year veteran. With a player of such experience, it's time to enforce effectiveness, not just develop it. Dogging it on D is not a developmental issue; it's an effort issue, enforceable (possibly) by benching for one whistle (and maybe a good tongue-lashing to boot, in honor of what Jerry Sloan should've done to Carlos Boozer a few times).

If you remember reading that Al Jefferson was a good on-ball defender, it didn't come from here:

Tim Kawakami (beat writer for the Golden State Warriors) said:
No-Defense Player of the Year: Al Jefferson, Utah. Congratulations, Al! You’ve been headed towards this award for most of your up/down career and you’ve finally gotten it.

Sure, it looks like a tough selection when the stats say that Jefferson was one of the more productive shot-blockers in the league this season (153 blks). But there’s more to defense than blocking shots, and Al didn’t do ANY of them…

Can’t tell you how many times I was watching a Utah game, saw the Jazz give up an easy bucket in the half-court, and figured out it was Jefferson who turned his head at the wrong time or just decided to leave the weak side totally unprotected.

Raw stat: He had the worst defensive differential per 100 possessions than any player in the league (among regulars, that I could find)–Utah gave up 6.8 more points per 100 possessions when Jefferson was on the court than when he was off. 113.3 when he was ON, 106.5 when he was off.
https://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawak...l-jefferson-monta-ellis-kobe-bryant-and-more/
This professional sportswriter combined data and game film to form an opinion--what a concept!

In response to your claim, I just found this article now; I wasn't expecting to find a source that put Jefferson at dead worst in D. Congrats on beating out Amare Stoudemire for the honors, Big Al; that's not an easy thing to do.

If any coach would be thought to bench a player for giving up an easy basket, it's Jerry Sloan (and hopefully his trained successor). But behind the hard-nosed image, Ol' Jer was an unsophisticated leader and strategist who couldn't even put his own mantra into motion. And Utah held onto him for 3 to 5 years too long.
 
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Yes, and all it takes is effort--and perhaps the coaching staff enforcing the effort. And that's why Fes (and Elson, too, and maybe Kanter next year) should be/have been used as short-term subs when AJ was dogging it, so that he knows that his playing time isn't guaranteed.

. . .

Compared to on-court effectiveness (or on-bench effectiveness, in the case of coaches), loyalty is overrated. What did loyalty to AK get us? A bloated contract probably costing 2x its true value. Loyalty to Karl Malone? Maybe a few million savings here and then, and then a one-way ticket to the Lakers. Loyalty to John Stockton? Significant savings. But there's only one John Stockton. Loyalty to Jerry Sloan? 20+ years of playoff appearances, but unfortunately the Jazz's potential was higher than that when they carried two of the top 50 players of all time for many of those years.

Let Al Jefferson "develop"? Isn't nearly 3,000 minutes this year alone (nearly thrice the playing time of Fesenko for his entire career) enough time to "develop"?

Develop, schmevelop. Jefferson is 26 years old and a 7-year veteran. With a player of such experience, it's time to enforce effectiveness, not just develop it. Dogging it on D is not a developmental issue; it's an effort issue, enforceable (possibly) by benching for one whistle (and maybe a good tongue-lashing to boot, in honor of what Jerry Sloan should've done to Carlos Boozer a few times).

If you remember reading that Al Jefferson was a good on-ball defender, it didn't come from here:

This professional sportswriter combined data and game film to form an opinion--what a concept!

In response to your claim, I just found this article now; I wasn't expecting to find a source that put Jefferson at dead worst in D. Congrats on beating out Amare Stoudemire for the honors, Big Al; that's not an easy thing to do.

If any coach would be thought to bench a player for giving up an easy basket, it's Jerry Sloan (and hopefully his trained successor). But behind the hard-nosed image, Ol' Jer was an unsophisticated leader and strategist who couldn't even put his own mantra into motion. And Utah held onto him for 3 to 5 years too long.

Wow, thanks for the hard numbers on Jefferson. I didn't have any idea what they were. This makes things even more clear.

Also, I wanted to mention that you make a lot of good points.
 
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