Boston to make huge push for Hayward

[LogGrad98]

Do you think I didn't know that? I was just plaiyin'.

Remember, the interwebs can't see you wink.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Repd da Log

 

[b_line]

The pluses a healthy and even 90% Rondo would bring over Burke are defense and pass-first mentality. I am still not convinced that Burke is anything more than a shoot-first point guard, and his defense has been just ok in the games I have seen. Another thing you get with Rondo is a fierce competitor. We are seeing some of that in Burke, but he lacks that killer instinct, and I think Rondo has shown he takes it personally when they don't succeed. But we have enough weapons, that, if fully integrated, would more than make up for our point guard only scoring 10 per game, and in fact are probably preferable to a point that looks for his own scoring as much or more than getting others involved.

Case in point, and yes just one game, but Hayward's miracle game. Did you see Trey's line?

10 pts on 4-12 shooting
6 assists
6 boards
2 steals

Decent line, to be sure. But he took only 4 fewer shots than Hayward, while getting outscored by 27, and had one fewer assists. I know he is a rookie and this is only one game, but I am not seeing a pass-first PG here. If this were Stock and Malone, and Malone ended with nearly 40 points Stock would have been sitting on 12 assists minimum, and if it were just 12 we would have noted he had a bit of an off-game. I am not expecting Trey to be Stockton, but I would have expected more from the PG in that circumstance. I am a bit concerned that his style of play might not be the best for us, especially if we catch a super-star.

Trey is like the new mold of the NBA point guard. They can initiate offense, draw the defense away with decent outside shooting, drive and dish, or drive and make a shot, but they are not necessarily the old school "pass first" point guards. There are not really any of those left outside of Rondo and Maybe CP3. Rubio is a pass first guard out of necessity, because he sucks really bad at shooting the ball. Most of the best guards in the NBA now are like Rose, Lillard, Wall, etc. Very fast guys who can do a lot more than just pass. I think that is the way the league is going. I mean, look at Tony Parker, one of the most successful point guards ever with multiple championships. He isn't a pass first pg, but his team is great.

 

[The Midnight]

The pluses a healthy and even 90% Rondo would bring over Burke are defense and pass-first mentality. I am still not convinced that Burke is anything more than a shoot-first point guard, and his defense has been just ok in the games I have seen. Another thing you get with Rondo is a fierce competitor. We are seeing some of that in Burke, but he lacks that killer instinct, and I think Rondo has shown he takes it personally when they don't succeed. But we have enough weapons, that, if fully integrated, would more than make up for our point guard only scoring 10 per game, and in fact are probably preferable to a point that looks for his own scoring as much or more than getting others involved.

Case in point, and yes just one game, but Hayward's miracle game. Did you see Trey's line?

10 pts on 4-12 shooting
6 assists
6 boards
2 steals

Decent line, to be sure. But he took only 4 fewer shots than Hayward, while getting outscored by 27, and had one fewer assists. I know he is a rookie and this is only one game, but I am not seeing a pass-first PG here. If this were Stock and Malone, and Malone ended with nearly 40 points Stock would have been sitting on 12 assists minimum, and if it were just 12 we would have noted he had a bit of an off-game. I am not expecting Trey to be Stockton, but I would have expected more from the PG in that circumstance. I am a bit concerned that his style of play might not be the best for us, especially if we catch a super-star.

If you want assists go get Kendall Marshal, tbh. PGs need to be able to score in today's NBA to be relevant.. plus Burke has shown a willingness to pass. He had some really nice assists to Favors in the OKC game.

 

[Sexual Favors]

The pluses a healthy and even 90% Rondo would bring over Burke are defense and pass-first mentality. I am still not convinced that Burke is anything more than a shoot-first point guard, and his defense has been just ok in the games I have seen. Another thing you get with Rondo is a fierce competitor. We are seeing some of that in Burke, but he lacks that killer instinct, and I think Rondo has shown he takes it personally when they don't succeed. But we have enough weapons, that, if fully integrated, would more than make up for our point guard only scoring 10 per game, and in fact are probably preferable to a point that looks for his own scoring as much or more than getting others involved.

Case in point, and yes just one game, but Hayward's miracle game. Did you see Trey's line?

10 pts on 4-12 shooting
6 assists
6 boards
2 steals

Decent line, to be sure. But he took only 4 fewer shots than Hayward, while getting outscored by 27, and had one fewer assists. I know he is a rookie and this is only one game, but I am not seeing a pass-first PG here. If this were Stock and Malone, and Malone ended with nearly 40 points Stock would have been sitting on 12 assists minimum, and if it were just 12 we would have noted he had a bit of an off-game. I am not expecting Trey to be Stockton, but I would have expected more from the PG in that circumstance. I am a bit concerned that his style of play might not be the best for us, especially if we catch a super-star.

Been concerned about Trey for this reason from the get go. He is better than I thought he'd be, but his "competitive mentality" often means him taking the shots... not good imho.

I would love Rondo, and have said so many times, but not at the expense of Hayward. I would give them Trey and Gobert (of our real assets), but no one else. Enes, Gordon, Alec, and Derrick are still off limits to me. Trey is good, but I am still a bit of a skeptic when it comes to his willingness to pass. There is just no player in the association who has a chance of being traded who I want more than Hayward.

 

[b_line]

@ Log,

I have thought about what you brought up with the "Trey is not a pass first PG" argument a bit. Do you think that we are spoiled as Jazz fans, and think we absolutely must have a pass first PG? I have wondered that, because we were blessed with Stock, and then D-Will was a great assist guy when he was here as well.

So do we as Jazz fans think that is the only way to go with point guards? Is it the best way? I am genuinely interested in what people think on this subject.

A couple of arguments against the pass first PG:

What modern NBA team has won a title/been a serious contender with a true pass first PG? (Rondo, and who else?)
Are the current NBA rules more geared towards guards scoring vs assisting the bigs in scoring?

For the Pass First PG:

Watching those 90's Jazz teams was a thing of beauty.
We have potentially great frontcourt tandem in Favors and Kanter, and just need a good pick and roll PG to help them out.

Thoughts?

 

[jope]

The pluses a healthy and even 90% Rondo would bring over Burke are defense and pass-first mentality. I am still not convinced that Burke is anything more than a shoot-first point guard, and his defense has been just ok in the games I have seen. Another thing you get with Rondo is a fierce competitor. We are seeing some of that in Burke, but he lacks that killer instinct, and I think Rondo has shown he takes it personally when they don't succeed. But we have enough weapons, that, if fully integrated, would more than make up for our point guard only scoring 10 per game, and in fact are probably preferable to a point that looks for his own scoring as much or more than getting others involved.

Case in point, and yes just one game, but Hayward's miracle game. Did you see Trey's line?

10 pts on 4-12 shooting
6 assists
6 boards
2 steals

Decent line, to be sure. But he took only 4 fewer shots than Hayward, while getting outscored by 27, and had one fewer assists. I know he is a rookie and this is only one game, but I am not seeing a pass-first PG here. If this were Stock and Malone, and Malone ended with nearly 40 points Stock would have been sitting on 12 assists minimum, and if it were just 12 we would have noted he had a bit of an off-game. I am not expecting Trey to be Stockton, but I would have expected more from the PG in that circumstance. I am a bit concerned that his style of play might not be the best for us, especially if we catch a super-star.

I agree, but as a tangent, the difference between the two situations you present are that stockton initiated the offense almost every single time in the half court, and really on the break, while trey is at a minimum splitting offensive initiation 50/50 with Hayward. It seems logical to me that if trey initiated the offense as he does, plus for every time that hayward does, his assists would be higher overall.

That's just not the identity of this team, as the versatility that comes from distributing the play-making role among 2 (sometimes 3) people on the perimeter makes it harder, as you cant just stop 1 guy from making plays like we saw good teams try to do to Deron in his time here. You need a seriously elite, crafty pg that knows the game to be successful in the one-man-show initiative offense (Stockton, CP3); Trey will never be that guy. But if you are open to a future with 2 guys on the perimeter capable of combining for 15ish assists a night, the future looks bright IMO.

 

[fishonjazz]

Well, I was also concerned enough about Rondo's return. What is he going to be? And I didn't say I absolutely wouldn't do the trade, but just that one of those guys and a broken Rondo would not be enough to make it a no-brainer. Maybe put it this way, would you trade Hayward and Burke straight up for one of those 4 only? So give up Hay and Burke and get back Parker, and nothing else. Not sure if that is the best move, to be honest.

I would do that trade and I love burke and hayward.
But jabari is being touted as a possible all time great so I take my chances with that.

Plus jabari would be cheaper than burke and hayward combined (at least for the first four years) and him being a mormon would make tons of money for the franchise

 

[LogGrad98]

I have become somewhat jaded, as there always seems to be the next GOAT coming in and far more often than not it does not pan out.

But I am also tired of being an also-ran all the time. Somewhere along the line we need to **** or get off the pot, and we have spent a lot of time on the pot (some more than others, right nate?...and apparently GF?? =). So I am all-in. Blow the **** up if it gives us a chance to get over the top. You have convinced me. From an asset management perspective it makes more sense to keep the known quantities and trade up as we can, working again as much as possible in known quantities. But we have been doing that for years and gotten slightly better known quantities, more or less balancing the equation. I would LOVE to see us make some huge crazy stupid moronic move that nets us the next LBJ, like Boston did with the KG and other trades.

 

[fishonjazz]

I have become somewhat jaded, as there always seems to be the next GOAT coming in and far more often than not it does not pan out.

Just curious.
Does anyone know who the last highly touted GOAT was coming into the league?

The last one I remember was lebron and he turned out ok

 

[b_line]

Just curious.
Does anyone know who the last highly touted GOAT was coming into the league?

The last one I remember was lebron and he turned out ok

LeBron and KD were touted pretty highly. Don't think they were touted as GOAT, but KD worked out pretty well. And Oden showed everyone his wiener, so there's that...

 

[shadler]

Just curious.
Does anyone know who the last highly touted GOAT was coming into the league?

Jimmer