Build That Wall!!

[Boris]

Some of us aren’t as cogent and polished writers as you obviously are, so, sorry for my “rambling.” It would be much better if you could simply pontificate your dynamic ideas unencumbered by the simpletons of the world. Then, we could achieve intellectual rapture. Thank you for deigning to listen to the simple people, or at least simple person.

I do not claim to be an expert on border security, nor do I have the time to answer all of the questions I proposed. I’ll mention a few basic provisions for securing our borders and limiting immigration and emigration (criminals, sex-trafficking, etc.) without touching on the general theory of nations and immigration, since that has been what has mostly been discussed so far, i.e., the general theoretical approach to immigration as it pertains to a nation. Your suggestion was for “a free-for-all.”

As far as security is concerned, I actually think that our present system is pretty good. The northern border is pretty secure at this point. On the southern border, we apprehend hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants each year and deport sometimes hundreds of thousands who have a certain level of criminality. I think that we should definitely concentrate on arresting and deporting illegal immigrants with a certain level of criminality. All unaccompanied children should be welcomed into the country. We should also concentrate on admitting families who are refugees, particularly from conditions more or less directly caused by our interventions. In other instances, we should work with other countries and individual states to evenly settle refugees in safe environments.

One idea might be to have some estimate of the economic impact of immigration by a bipartisan council of economic and sociology experts, along with border patrol officials. This panel could then determine what a reasonable amount of immigration would be before our resources were exhausted and we were unable to address the social issues of our own country. If we had more families wanting to immigrate, then we would be able to expand this by having these families stay with American families who would volunteer their lodgings, food, etc., for a given period of time. We could then work with other countries and private individuals to take in more immigrants if necessary.

We should also maintain the present system of passports and the documenting of people on flights.

This!

We need to take refugees that want to be free, make them successful, then arm them to the teeth and let them invade there own countries.

Take Cuba for example. I watched a documentary made during Fidel Castro times. They all said they wanted to leave to USA cause of conditions but also that they love being Cuban an living on Cuban soil. Solution is simple. Create militia out of Miami Cubans an send them some bitches back home for a vengeance.

Cuba really should be are 54th state.

 

[Boris]

How I undo a dislike? To easy to hit wrong gesture

 

[ONE LOVE]

Just curious about another angle on all of this... What's the pension and social security system like in the US at the moment?

What would happen if you open the border tomorrow as some here seems to suggest and millions start crossing it (not just Mexicans BTW, the whole world would be knocking) and the next day demand that they are paid beneficiaries when there are not enough jobs to go around and the over 60s or 65s demand they are paid pensions as well? You would have to give them the same rights as any other American citizens, right? Would the government have enough money to go around?

And what would Americans who have paid tax all their lives say about all this? I would imagine riots after riots in the street from both sides....

 

[8]

My point is preferring's got nothing to do with it. Obviously people want to be able to improve their situation, just as I want unlimited free frozen yogurt and free flights to wherever I want. I prefer this, that means that people who own airlines and frozen yogurt stores should allow me to have what I want because I prefer it, right? There are quite often open spots on airplanes, and they must waste lots of frozen yogurt throughout the day at yogurt shops. It wouldn't hurt a thing if they let me have what I want, so why don't I get it?

What an awful example. Having a business operate towards serving you with no expense actually does a lot of harm to them.

Having new people come to a country to further enhance competition and dynamize the economy is a huge benefit. It's a foundation of a free economy. It would help make frozen yogurt and airplane service better and cheaper. The only thing that got's you hung up is your complacency, which leads us all to conclude, if we haven't already, that a free and growing economy is not right for you. That's okay, there are many people who spend time rent-seeking and stagnating the economy. It's an accepted practice.

But your example was extremely dumb. Go break some windows to give work to the window fixers!

 

[ONE LOVE]

LOL .. masterful trolling job by LazyD up in here!!!

 

[BYE]

What an awful example. Having a business operate towards serving you with no expense actually does a lot of harm to them.

Having new people come to a country to further enhance competition and dynamize the economy is a huge benefit. It's a foundation of a free economy. It would help make frozen yogurt and airplane service better and cheaper. The only thing that got's you hung up is your complacency, which leads us all to conclude, if we haven't already, that a free and growing economy is not right for you. That's okay, there are many people who spend time rent-seeking and stagnating the economy. It's an accepted practice.

But your example was extremely dumb. Go break some windows to give work to the window fixers!

Normally, I'm fine with people expressing their opinions, and anyone can do it on a forum, but I have seen no one, who promotes completely open borders, address any of the problems that might be associated with opening up the borders. Show me one country even remotely similar to the U.S. that has had unlimited immigration as a prime example. What can we learn from this mythical country. I have never proposed zero immigration in any of the comments throughout this thread anywhere, so nice talking with you straw man. I have proposed a form of limiting and policing immigration and movement across our borders whether northern, southern, western, or eastern.

Your original argument is that people prefer to have a better life, so that means, they should get it, because they want/prefer it. A person's feelings mean nothing when it comes to his/her desires. We all want things we can't have. Wanting/preferring is the most idiotic reason for allowing something, and you should have learned this as a child. My example is absolutely applicable, because your reasoning goes beyond immigration. You stated, "I'd prefer to have the option of moving somewhere that is better for me." Cool! I shared some of my desires with you. Let's make them happen. You have no idea what each person is thinking when they express desire, and you said nothing about what someone is willing to do to get what they prefer, e.g., work, invest, nothing. Your argument was, "People should be able to have what they want." Brilliant! That solves everything. Mothers have absolutely gotten it wrong all these years with their toddlers. They didn't let their toddlers have that num num. My example here isn't a perfect analogy to immigration, but the logic is the same with your reasoning: one should get what they want because they want it. If you want to make some specific suggestion that has a bit of nuance about immigration, then feel free. But once again, we're on a public forum, so feel free to say whatever the hell you want, as I'm sure you will.

 

[8]

Your original argument is that people prefer to have a better life, so that means, they should get it, because they want/prefer it.

Your an idiot

 

[ONE LOVE]

Just curious about another angle on all of this... What's the pension and social security system like in the US at the moment?

What would happen if you open the border tomorrow as some here seems to suggest and millions start crossing it (not just Mexicans BTW, the whole world would be knocking) and the next day demand that they are paid beneficiaries when there are not enough jobs to go around and the over 60s or 65s demand they are paid pensions as well? You would have to give them the same rights as any other American citizens, right? Would the government have enough money to go around?

And what would Americans who have paid tax all their lives say about all this? I would imagine riots after riots in the street from both sides....

Would still love a response to this post from those supporting the 'open the border' idea. I don't have a horse in this race, just wanna know what both sides think about this.

 

[Siro]

Would still love a response to this post from those supporting the 'open the border' idea. I don't have a horse in this race, just wanna know what both sides think about this.

Since social security and pensions depend on young workers supporting the elderly, allowing more tax-paying workers to come in would improve the situation. Not the opposite. Or we can be like Japan, and watch our society slowly collapse as we congratulate each other for our xenophobia.

 

[ONE LOVE]

Since social security and pensions depend on young workers supporting the elderly, allowing more tax-paying workers to come in would improve the situation. Not the opposite. Or we can be like Japan, and watch our society slowly collapse as we congratulate each other for our xenophobia.

Fair enough.


But then I guess the proof is in the pudding. If open border is so beneficial socially and economically, then why don't most countries have that policy currently?

 

[BYE]

Your an idiot

Your eloquence and logical vigor is par for the course. Well done! This shocked "every person ever."

 

[Scat]

Your an idiot

You're

 

[Siro]

Fair enough.


But then I guess the proof is in the pudding. If open border is so beneficial socially and economically, then why don't most countries have that policy currently?

Why is Japan refusing to allow mass immigration despite the fact they are facing a depopulation crisis? It is not a rational position, but an emotional one.

 

[8]

Fair enough.


But then I guess the proof is in the pudding. If open border is so beneficial socially and economically, then why don't most countries have that policy currently?

Because countries are governed by people who serve many constituents that value personal complacency over productivity as individuals and a nation as a whole. A freer, more fluid economy that consistently grows features intense competition and lots of change. This scares many people.

 

[ONE LOVE]

Why is Japan refusing to allow mass immigration despite the fact they are facing a depopulation crisis? It is not a rational position, but an emotional one.

I think culture is another reason. Japanese people are very proud of their culture and how they do things is very important to them. I think they'll have to weigh up the economic benefit vs how they want to protect their culture and way of life. No point having a whole lot of Chinese people coming in boosting economy but be very messy and rude and destroy everything they've spent centuries building.

 

[♪alt13]

Some of us aren’t as cogent and polished writers as you obviously are, so, sorry for my “rambling.” It would be much better if you could simply pontificate your dynamic ideas unencumbered by the simpletons of the world. Then, we could achieve intellectual rapture. Thank you for deigning to listen to the simple people, or at least simple person.

I do not claim to be an expert on border security, nor do I have the time to answer all of the questions I proposed. I’ll mention a few basic provisions for securing our borders and limiting immigration and emigration (criminals, sex-trafficking, etc.) without touching on the general theory of nations and immigration, since that has been what has mostly been discussed so far, i.e., the general theoretical approach to immigration as it pertains to a nation. Your suggestion was for “a free-for-all.”

As far as security is concerned, I actually think that our present system is pretty good. The northern border is pretty secure at this point. On the southern border, we apprehend hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants each year and deport sometimes hundreds of thousands who have a certain level of criminality. I think that we should definitely concentrate on arresting and deporting illegal immigrants with a certain level of criminality. All unaccompanied children should be welcomed into the country. We should also concentrate on admitting families who are refugees, particularly from conditions more or less directly caused by our interventions. In other instances, we should work with other countries and individual states to evenly settle refugees in safe environments.

One idea might be to have some estimate of the economic impact of immigration by a bipartisan council of economic and sociology experts, along with border patrol officials. This panel could then determine what a reasonable amount of immigration would be before our resources were exhausted and we were unable to address the social issues of our own country. If we had more families wanting to immigrate, then we would be able to expand this by having these families stay with American families who would volunteer their lodgings, food, etc., for a given period of time. We could then work with other countries and private individuals to take in more immigrants if necessary.

We should also maintain the present system of passports and the documenting of people on flights.

No it's not! It's the longest border in the world and it's almost entirely undefended. Canadians tend to be white, have money, and they send us chronic instead of schwag so... no one cares.

 

[BYE]

Since social security and pensions depend on young workers supporting the elderly, allowing more tax-paying workers to come in would improve the situation. Not the opposite. Or we can be like Japan, and watch our society slowly collapse as we congratulate each other for our xenophobia.

I think it's clear that a complete lack of immigration into a country is a horrible idea, but I would argue that so is unchecked and unmonitored immigration in most situations. The assumption that immigrants will contribute to social security and pensions significantly is based on the idea that these immigrants will fall into a given tax bracket. In order to be able to meet the need for all citizens, established and newly arrived, thought and planning by experts in sociology and economics helps us to understand how many immigrants our economy can handle and how this will affect our ability to deal with poverty and education problems within the country we are trying to improve.

 

[♪alt13]

I think it's clear that a complete lack of immigration into a country is a horrible idea, but I would argue that so is unchecked and unmonitored immigration in most situations. The assumption that immigrants will contribute to social security and pensions significantly is based on the idea that these immigrants will fall into a given tax bracket. In order to be able to meet the need for all citizens, established and newly arrived, thought and planning by experts in sociology and economics helps us to understand how many immigrants our economy can handle and how this will affect our ability to deal with poverty and education problems within the country we are trying to improve.

The studies have been done. Look it up. Immigrants, even illegal ones, contribute more to tax revenues than they receive in services. They commit less crime than we do. As Siro has already pointed out, they mitigate demographic decline. Without immigration America would already be in demographic decline. The birth rates of natural born US citizens has been under the replacement rate since the 1970's. There is no need for us to succumb to fear mongering. Immigration is crazy beneficial to the US.

 

[BYE]

No it's not! It's the longest border in the world and it's almost entirely undefended. Canadians tend to be white, have money, and they send us chronic instead of schwag so... no one cares.

Glad you agree with everything else I wrote! I didn't mean that it was fortified, but rather that we have very little illegal immigration when compared to the south. The numbers are infinitely smaller, and Canadians usually don't have any problem getting visas if they like. Canadians have a tendency to overstay their visa time limit rather than immigrating illegally. It's not a race thing.

 

[BYE]

The studies have been done. Look it up. Immigrants, even illegal ones, contribute more to tax revenues than they receive in services. They commit less crime than we do. As Siro has already pointed out, they mitigate demographic decline. Without immigration America would already be in demographic decline. The birth rates of natural born US citizens has been under the replacement rate since the 1970's. There is no need for us to succumb to fear mongering. Immigration is crazy beneficial to the US.

Again, who is arguing for no immigration? I am pointing out that their is a more beneficial way to do it rather than completely open and unmonitored borders, including the northern, southern, eastern, and western borders. Arguing that significant immigration is good isn't hard to do, and I personally wouldn't waste my time even trying to do so. The idea of a free for all is much more difficult to argue, and I have seen very little evidence to support the soundness of this argument.