Bully Ball and the Jazz

[Getting Traded]

I think the reputation, whether justified or not, has gotten around the league that the Jazz are soft. And as we have seen teams have gotten back in games by playing very aggressive, bully ball, recently. The Sun did that in the 4th quarter of the last game between against the Jazz. Well, this time they decided to do it from the outset. It's a credit to the Jazz that they hung in there.

But the problem as I see it, is the OFFICIATING. They are not calling, not only legit calls, but blatant ones, some that should even be flagrant fouls like Len's elbow on Neto. I'm not sure you can call the elbow on Hill flagrant because it didn't look intentional, but the one on Neto did look intentional. Bledsoe, for one, plays basketball as if he were playing football -- even Boller and Harp commented that one of his drives was something you do in football.

This has got to stop. People are going to get injured and they have. It could be one of the reasons that the Jazz are getting so many injuries. The officials need to be called out on this. I suggest writing Mike Bantom, Head of NBA officials, mbantom@nba.com

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Yeah, no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Boris]

Yeah, no idea what you are talking about.

She is saying the number one defense is considered weak? Lol

 

[BabyPeterzz]

Ummm pretty sure the Jazz are one of the most physical teams in the NBA. Hence the heated tempers and dirty play.


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[Getting Traded]

She is saying the number one defense is considered weak? Lol

Who is she? What's not to understand?

 

[b_line]

Ha

 

[Getting Traded]

Ummm pretty sure the Jazz are one of the most physical teams in the NBA. Hence the heated tempers and dirty play.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The Jazz are not one of the most physical teams. Are you kidding? I guess you're trying to pull my chain.

 

[Stifle Tower]

Favs and Hill are the most physical, but they've been out. I wouldn't call Rudy real physical. He's intense, intimidates shooters because of his height, but he's not going to punish people physically.

That said, do we need to have players committing needless hard fouls to be great defensively? Opponents out foul the Jazz. I think that's a good thing.

And offensively, have you seen the way Hayward takes it to the hoop? I don't think the Jazz are "soft."

 

[Getting Traded]

Favs and Hill are the most physical, but they've been out. I wouldn't call Rudy real physical. He's intense, intimidates shooters because of his height, but he's not going to punish people physically.

That said, do we need to have players committing needless hard fouls to be great defensively? Opponents out foul the Jazz. I think that's a good thing.

And offensively, have you seen the way Hayward takes it to the hoop? I don't think the Jazz are "soft."

I never said Hayward was soft. But do you see the way Bledsoe plays? He makes MJ's push-off of Russell look like patty-cakes and they don't call anything. I thought there's a hand check rule? Well, it no longer is enforced. It's just the normal way of playing defense now to put your hand on the opposing player. All this physical play that is not allowed in the rules being allowed is the source of a lot of the injuries and not just to the Jazz.

 

[Siro]

I never said Hayward was soft. But do you see the way Bledsoe plays? He makes MJ's push-off of Russell look like patty-cakes and they don't call anything. I thought there's a hand check rule? Well, it no longer is enforced. It's just the normal way of playing defense now to put your hand on the opposing player. All this physical play that is not allowed in the rules being allowed is the source of a lot of the injuries and not just to the Jazz.

So you're saying to be tough, we should be committing stupid fouls and hope refs don't call them?

 

[Getting Traded]

So you're saying to be tough, we should be committing stupid fouls and hope refs don't call them?

No, the refs need to call the fouls, and they aren't. It's absolutely ridiculous. I don't think the Jazz play dirty or even that physical compared to other teams who regularly use the stiff arm on both offense and defense. Guys like Bledsoe just bull into players with their shoulders. Did you see that one play that sent Mack flying and there was no call -- that was the one where Harp and Boller said it was more like a football play. Now you know Harp isn't and never was a soft player -- he used to face up Artest and not flinch. And Bledsoe constantly grabs on to people or pushes them away. In the game I saw in person, on the first possession of that game he pushed Dante who went flying on the ground and the refs never called a foul.

But in my assessment, a lot of these comebacks by other teams have been fueled by overly aggressive bully ball and the refs swallowing their whistles. Anyone who can't see that is blind. Holding, pushing, grabbing, putting a shoulder into someone, free-wheel elbowing are fouls but they're not being called.

 

[Getting Traded]

I'm surprised there haven't been more comments on this. Mostly just dumbass comments by sarcastic a-holes. Are the refs swallowing their whistles or not? You agree or not, and has it let other teams get back in games that they shouldn't have? Or is this just the way they play the game in the NBA now. If so, I think this trend is going to lead to an increasing number of injuries. Discuss.

 

[8]

This thread sucks

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I'm surprised there haven't been more comments on this. Mostly just dumbass comments by sarcastic a-holes. Are the refs swallowing their whistles or not? You agree or not, and has it let other teams get back in games that they shouldn't have? Or is this just the way they play the game in the NBA now. If so, I think this trend is going to lead to an increasing number of injuries. Discuss.

So it's a recent phenomenon that players commit fouls and the refs dont see them or dont call them all?

Hint: It's not. That was basically the premise of Jerry Sloan's entire defensive philosophy: Foul a ton so refs cant call everything, raising the bar of physicality in the game that your opponents may have a hard time adjusting to. If anything this has decreased in the modern basketball era.

 

[Coach Ellis]

So it's a recent phenomenon that players commit fouls and the refs dont see them or dont call them all?

Hint: It's not. That's was basically the premise of Jerry Sloan's entire defensive philosophy: Foul a ton so refs cant call everything, raising the bar of physicality in the game that your opponents may have a hard time adjusting to. If anything this has decreased in the modern basketball era.

Great post. You and I don't always agree on the viability of this philosophy, but this is it in a nutshell. I like the idea of raising the physicality bar and grinding teams into dust. Obviously it won't work against all teams, but I like this style of play. The hard part (IMO) is finding the Trevor Booker type of players that have the right type of mentality to do it game in and game out. The Detroit Pistons (twice) lived and breathed this philosophy. I think the Jazz would be well served to model themselves after that.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Great post. You and I don't always agree on the viability of this philosophy, but this is it in a nutshell. I like the idea of raising the physicality bar and grinding teams into dust. Obviously it won't work against all teams, but I like this style of play. The hard part (IMO) is finding the Trevor Booker type of players that have the right type of mentality to do it game in and game out. The Detroit Pistons (twice) lived and breathed this philosophy. I think the Jazz would be well served to model themselves after that.

I just think the way you think going about it is wrong. You are a proponent for the "send a message hard foul" which IMO is a negative approach in this philosophy. That forces the refs to call a ton of fouls in an effort to control the game from getting out of control. The whole point of doing this is so refs dont call fouls. The way to execute this is to just do a ton of small things, grabbing/holding/pushing, very subtle fouls that refs can't possibly call every time, especially if you make those transgressions the norm for the match. Joe Ingles is probably a better player at executing this than Booker, whose bravado brings attention from the refs to himself whereas Joe can fly under the radar with his fouls, like John Stockton.

 

[Coach Ellis]

I just think the way you think going about it is wrong. You are a proponent for the "send a message hard foul" which IMO is a negative approach in this philosophy. That forces the refs to call a ton of fouls in an effort to control the game from getting out of control. The whole point of doing this is so refs dont call fouls. The way to execute this is to just do a ton of small things, grabbing/holding/pushing, very subtle fouls that refs can't possibly call every time, especially if you make those transgressions the norm for the match. Joe Ingles is probably a better player at executing this than Booker, whose bravado brings attention from the refs to himself whereas Joe can fly under the radar with his fouls, like John Stockton.

I'd like a more physical team in general, but I don't mind having enforcers. This style of play is exactly one of the things that I love about Jingles. Very few players have his type of mindset though. I'd like a Rodman-esque player that is physical, hustles relentlessly and is always talking. Maybe that guy gets too much attention, but I think that's exactly what this team could use more of.

 

[Coach Ellis]

I just think the way you think going about it is wrong. You are a proponent for the "send a message hard foul" which IMO is a negative approach in this philosophy. That forces the refs to call a ton of fouls in an effort to control the game from getting out of control. The whole point of doing this is so refs dont call fouls. The way to execute this is to just do a ton of small things, grabbing/holding/pushing, very subtle fouls that refs can't possibly call every time, especially if you make those transgressions the norm for the match. Joe Ingles is probably a better player at executing this than Booker, whose bravado brings attention from the refs to himself whereas Joe can fly under the radar with his fouls, like John Stockton.

By the way. Repped this post, and think others should as well. Great post about how to go about executing this philosophy.

 

[The Jazz Wonderbra]

I would concur that teams try to have success against us by bringing a physical flair to the game. There is LOTS of grabbing, holding, pushing, and often times an elbow or more than usual. The most glaring example was the Sacramento Kings game. I was there and watching it live it was clear that the lineup with Temple, Cauley Stein, Tolliver, and Lawson was really frustrating us because they were making ALL SORTS of physical contact all over the court and the refs didn't call crap. The three guys with me left furious after that game because the TYPE of fouls being called were not consistent.

When someone holds your arm with two hands as you move around every screen - and no foul is called... But if your pinky grazes a jumpshooter's wrist it's a foul. DeMarcus Cousins got 2 fouls in the final minute that sent him to the free throw line. Watching replays and live they were EXTREMELY SOFT. Gobert got the makeup call on the dunk. Also EXTREMELY SOFT. All 3 of those should not have been called, but Garrett Temple couldn't play defense without two hands on a player for a quarter and a half... and he didn't get called for more than 1 foul in 12 minutes.

So, IMHO, it's not that teams are sending out a thug to cheap shot us. It's the type of fouls that are being called by NBA officials. Example... when a crafty scorer like Harden or Burks is attacking the hoop aggressively, they get calls all the time. When a Power forward like Howard or Favors tries to dunk over someone and has 2 guys draped all over them, the fouls just don't get called. I think most teams know that GRABBING and holding fouls are called 3% of the time or less. So, they just increase the grabbing and it frustrates our offense. They may get one or two fouls for doing it over the course of a quarter, but that is little to no punishment for frustrating 25 plays...

I am confident that the refs see the same thing. I am disappointed that grabbing is not considered a foul in a league that very often gives 'vet' calls with the "pump fake jump WAY out of the natural shooting motion into a player" fouls. Inconsistency breeds frustration.

 

[The Jazz Wonderbra]

I just think the way you think going about it is wrong. You are a proponent for the "send a message hard foul" which IMO is a negative approach in this philosophy. That forces the refs to call a ton of fouls in an effort to control the game from getting out of control. The whole point of doing this is so refs dont call fouls. The way to execute this is to just do a ton of small things, grabbing/holding/pushing, very subtle fouls that refs can't possibly call every time, especially if you make those transgressions the norm for the match. Joe Ingles is probably a better player at executing this than Booker, whose bravado brings attention from the refs to himself whereas Joe can fly under the radar with his fouls, like John Stockton.

Saint... I read your post after I wrote mine. Agreed in full. The off ball small things don't get attention in a disproportionate way. The on ball high flying plays get more than they should disproportionate attention. The subtle and constant approach has been effective. But that's on the refs and the league.

Next game, watch how many times Hood and Hayward are grabbed or bumped or pushed or hooked as they try to use screens. Perhaps the Jazz need to work on countering it by pushing off at the right times to create space so the grabbing can't happen. Then again, pushing off gets called more often than grabbing. It's easier to see.