Caitlyn Jenner

[DutchJazzer]

^ what he said...

Even if you accept the whole gender as a social construct thing then you have to take all parts of that construct to really analyze it and make it meaningful in any way, and you cannot deny that biological sex is a strong part of it. We do not randomly assign gender at birth then enforce it regardless of hardware. If a child is born with a penis it is a "boy", etc. So if you are going to make this a meaningful academic discussion you must accept ALL aspects of that construct and cannot simply choose to exclude one aspect entirely and then claim that anyone who disagrees with you analysis of that construct after arbitrarily eliminating valid components as a "transphobe". That is ad hominem at the beginning, and pure intellectually dishonest.

RACIST!


edit: sarcasm ofcourse and mockery.
thats how people argue now whenever someone makes a valid point that a counter is hard and difficult they call him some kind of bigot.

so dont take it to heart i love you man. in a non homo way(no-homo), or should i not say that cus it is homophobic.

 

[Cappy_Smurf]

Call it what it is, a choice. They choose to be a different gender. Done. Over. Choices are just fine.

Yeah, I consider this to be an overly-simplistic point of view. I have a nephew in his early teens that is very clearly gay, and it was pretty evident from the time he was about 5 or 6 years old. Now, whether or not he ends up relating more as a gay man or woman in a man's body or a woman or somewhere in between, he obviously didn't make a choice as a young child to be the way he is. Wherever he/she ends up, I look at it more as an individual search of one's self and his/her place in the world, than simply making a choice. I don't believe he could choose to be straight anymore than I could choose to be gay. I guess for people who are truly bi-sexual, I can understand why people see it as a choice, but I also think a lot of people in that category get caught up in what they think others expect them to be and get confused by that. If people actually have a chance to be true to themselves, I see it as accepting what they really are, rather than making a choice.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

I have no issues with people doing what they want as long as it doesn't infringe on anyone else's right to do what they want and vice versa. Which actually makes smokers an interesting discussion because their choice to smoke in public interferes with my right to not have smoke blown in my face as I walk down the street. But I digress...

But I call ******** on the whole societal construct gender-fluidity thesis that is every bit as much a construct as gender is claimed to be. Call it what it is, a choice. They choose to be a different gender. Done. Over. Choices are just fine. But to strive so hard for some kind of scientific or academic legitimacy is a lot like all the crap people go through to avoid the impact of their choices. Just ball up...or ovary up I guess, and make the choice and live your life. I have read interviews with Jenner and he says more or less the same, that this is his choice and he accepts what comes along with it in our society. I agree that people who make such choices should not be punished for those decisions, but not because of some gawd-awful attempt at a legitimizing theory of trans-genderness that transcends all physical metaphysical gobbledygook, but just plain old do what is right. So for Jenner, good on him, er, her. Take it like a man..uh, woman. Um. Take it like a human being!

The problem with this viewpoint is that it's been shown on more than one occasion (take my earlier link for example) that genders in cultures aren't necessarily singularly defined to one's sex and can be sexually arbitrary.

Just because your culture doesn't have it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Of the gender roles available to people in western culture, some individuals identify more with the gender that isn't based on the sex of that individual. So it's not a choice, really. It's trying to fit in to what one sees as culturally acceptable. You tell someone that he/she "chose." That person will reply, "No, it's who I am." The only thing they choose is how closely they adhere to the prototypical expectations of that specific gender role in the same why you do.

What it takes to be a man or woman is purely defined by the culture in which it exists. Not sure how you could ever claim otherwise, that's there's one definitive measure. Can't be done.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Thinking about this more, I have a couple of observations:

1. It's some ******** that Dal would call anyone a transphobe for not using the correct term here, especially when the right term is probably some form of "It" that doesn't really exist yet. If Bruce really wanted to be called she, then he would not identify as transgender, he would identify as a girl/woman.

2. You should not post or read in this thread unless you want to have a bunch of stupid foreign dating ads pop up on the jazzfanz ads.

There have been many in trans communities that have invented pronouns specifically to this issue. Problem is they're generally summarily dismissed by people not well versed in the community.

Again, I have no really interest in the Jenner case specifically, so I can't speak on it, but I don't know nor care how Jenner personally identifies, whether it be as a woman or a "third gender." As one cannot identify with any specific set gender within a culture, one must look outside the two or pigeonhole inside the other. The problem is gender is not individualistic. Defined expectations of one's role within a culture is part of what makes up gender. Hard for any transgender person to find such roles. As an aside, I'd argue that western culture closest thing to a third gender is "gay man," as that elicits specific expectations of that person's role in a community. Any non-standard individual is left in a lurch otherwise.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

This is one of the dumbest things I've read in a while.

First, I just want to say, I have no problem with what Caitlyn is doing and if it makes her happy then all to her.

Second, no one has a right to be called anything and by choosing to not call someone by what they want to be called they are not being stripped of anything. Why, because it's not a right. I can't stand entitlement.

Third, is gender something that someone self-identifies with? Absolutely. That said, there are some major flaws and dangers in this concept as well and think they need to be addressed to biology not sociology - In other words, sometimes you have to play the cards you're dealt with in life. I know, shocking concept. Examples of what I'm talking about include everything from the perv at Planet Fitness (please, someone, I dare you to say to say "she" or it was the offended member's fault - I personally read that creepy guy's facebook page.) MMA, golf, and movies like Juanna Mann.

How does one "earn" the right to be called a man or woman by you?

 

[Darkwing Duck]

^ what he said...

Even if you accept the whole gender as a social construct thing then you have to take all parts of that construct to really analyze it and make it meaningful in any way, and you cannot deny that biological sex is a strong part of it. We do not randomly assign gender at birth then enforce it regardless of hardware. If a child is born with a penis it is a "boy", etc. So if you are going to make this a meaningful academic discussion you must accept ALL aspects of that construct and cannot simply choose to exclude one aspect entirely and then claim that anyone who disagrees with you analysis of that construct after arbitrarily eliminating valid components as a "transphobe". That is ad hominem at the beginning, and pure intellectually dishonest.

Biological studies have shown that one genetic makeup doesn't always match one's biological sex. Genitals of a male but genetic makeup of a female and vice versa have been observed. Enforcing gender based on biological sex doesn't work for those people. Strong minority for that specific event, but there's a lot of gray area in between what you'd think of as "standard" and that extreme degree.

 

[candrew]

Is it possible to throw up a bowl of Wheaties that I had in 1976?

I think it is.

 

[LogGrad98]

The problem with this viewpoint is that it's been shown on more than one occasion (take my earlier link for example) that genders in cultures aren't necessarily singularly defined to one's sex and can be sexually arbitrary.

Just because your culture doesn't have it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Of the gender roles available to people in western culture, some individuals identify more with the gender that isn't based on the sex of that individual. So it's not a choice, really. It's trying to fit in to what one sees as culturally acceptable. You tell someone that he/she "chose." That person will reply, "No, it's who I am." The only thing they choose is how closely they adhere to the prototypical expectations of that specific gender role in the same why you do.

What it takes to be a man or woman is purely defined by the culture in which it exists. Not sure how you could ever claim otherwise, that's there's one definitive measure. Can't be done.

That actually fits in my viewpoint just fine. Name it what you want. In those other societies I would like to know how they arbitrarily assign gender and also completely ignore the biological sex of the child. On some level that is still part of it, however it evolves after that. And if someone in that society decides or feels differently then it is the same situation in general.

As far as the question of "choice" goes, I don't know if we want to go there in this thread. When I used choice I mean it as Jenner was choosing to openly live who he feels he is, that is all.

 

[LogGrad98]

Biological studies have shown that one genetic makeup doesn't always match one's biological sex. Genitals of a male but genetic makeup of a female and vice versa have been observed. Enforcing gender based on biological sex doesn't work for those people. Strong minority for that specific event, but there's a lot of gray area in between what you'd think of as "standard" and that extreme degree.

Every system has anomalies. If 0.0000000001% (or .001% or .1% or 1%) of a population has a certain trait does that automatically define the rest of the population?

 

[LogGrad98]

Biological studies have shown that one genetic makeup doesn't always match one's biological sex. Genitals of a male but genetic makeup of a female and vice versa have been observed. Enforcing gender based on biological sex doesn't work for those people. Strong minority for that specific event, but there's a lot of gray area in between what you'd think of as "standard" and that extreme degree.

And I do not know what in my post made you think I want to "enforce gender" so I am not sure what you are arguing against.

 

[moevillini]

ccan i identify as king of the world?
doe sit make me king of the world
after all king is a socially constructed identity.

sorry dutch - it doe snot

 

[DutchJazzer]

sorry dutch - it doe snot

anyways i think anyone is free to do with their live as they please.
thats what freedom is about.

what i dont like as stoked or log(cant keep those 2 apart) mentioned smoking.
the problem with smoking is not 2nd hand smoke. but with healthcare you are paying for it in a way.
sooner or later these gender identity "issues"(if i may use that word) might be considered a health issue. meaning it can be corrected by iusing hormones and surgery.
dont know if those things are covered by health insurrance. but their lifestyle is costing other people money if thats the case.

again do as you please you should be free to do so. but dont let your freedom or choices infringe on others(well except your own flesh and blood children) cus you are responsible for them till they are an adult.


again guess i should be happy for him/her. but nobody should tell me or anyone to call him/her SHE.