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Caitlyn Jenner

Archie Moses said:
If what Jenner did doesn't meet the basic definition of courage then you are ignorant of what the definition of courage is and proving the point of what transgender people struggle with.
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dalamon said:
Dude, just ignore it. I was gonna dive in & point out how it is courageous, but they'll just dismiss it. They can't understand, mostly because they've never really had anyone close to them who is transgender. They'd be singing a different tune if that was the case. That's what it stems from. None have bothered watching the video, and none have bothered ever considering the plights of someone who is transgender (especially in person).
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I'd normally agree with you but in Jenner's case I believe it was motivated by money and fame. It is how that family is run. So was it courageous? Sure but it's tainted in my eyes in this one case by greed.
 
dalamon said:
Dude, just ignore it. I was gonna dive in & point out how it is courageous, but they'll just dismiss it. They can't understand, mostly because they've never really had anyone close to them who is transgender. They'd be singing a different tune if that was the case. That's what it stems from. None have bothered watching the video, and none have bothered ever considering the plights of someone who is transgender (especially in person).
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1) Didn't mean to click "like".

2) Those are a lot of assumptions piled into one post about someone you know nothing about, Dal. I genuinely like you, and I generally enjoy reading what you have to say, but you're flat wrong about me if you think what I said above was written from a place of ignorance. I am not only very close to someone who is transgender, I was there alongside them-- in full support-- every step of the way. I am INTIMATELY familiar with what you characterize as "the plights" of individuals making that transition. How about you...?

Jenner has certainly made some big decisions for himself, and I do not deny that they were difficult decisions. As I already stated, however, his transgender journey didn't even approach the level of courage required by most individuals who make those choices. I have no hate for Jenner, and I'm happy for Bruce that Caitlyn has found her place in life. But Jenner's story is not deserving of this award, considering what it represents and the countless others who better honor the memory of Arthur Ashe. It is exploitation by the ESPY Foundation of a headline, for publicity, and it is shameful. Most transgenders, I can assure you, would agree.

Of course, if you prefer, you can ask my sister, who finds the entire thing insulting...
 
olden_undercover said:
1) Didn't mean to click "like".

2) Those are a lot of assumptions piled into one post about someone you know nothing about, Dal. I genuinely like you, and I generally enjoy reading what you have to say, but you're flat wrong about me if you think what I said above was written from a place of ignorance. I am not only very close to someone who is transgender, I was there alongside them-- in full support-- every step of the way. I am INTIMATELY familiar with what you characterize as "the plights" of individuals making that transition. How about you...?

Jenner has certainly made some big decisions for himself, and I do not deny that they were difficult decisions. As I already stated, however, his transgender journey didn't even approach the level of courage required by most individuals who make those choices. I have no hate for Jenner, and I'm happy for Bruce that Caitlyn has found her place in life. But Jenner's story is not deserving of this award, considering what it represents and the countless others who better honor the memory of Arthur Ashe. It is exploitation by the ESPY Foundation of a headline, for publicity, and it is shameful. Most transgenders, I can assure you, would agree.

Of course, if you prefer, you can ask my sister, who finds the entire thing insulting...
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TRANSPHOBIC BIGOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
olden_undercover said:
1) Didn't mean to click "like".

2) Those are a lot of assumptions piled into one post about someone you know nothing about, Dal. I genuinely like you, and I generally enjoy reading what you have to say, but you're flat wrong about me if you think what I said above was written from a place of ignorance. I am not only very close to someone who is transgender, I was there alongside them-- in full support-- every step of the way. I am INTIMATELY familiar with what you characterize as "the plights" of individuals making that transition. How about you...?

Jenner has certainly made some big decisions for himself, and I do not deny that they were difficult decisions. As I already stated, however, his transgender journey didn't even approach the level of courage required by most individuals who make those choices. I have no hate for Jenner, and I'm happy for Bruce that Caitlyn has found her place in life. But Jenner's story is not deserving of this award, considering what it represents and the countless others who better honor the memory of Arthur Ashe. It is exploitation by the ESPY Foundation of a headline, for publicity, and it is shameful. Most transgenders, I can assure you, would agree.

Of course, if you prefer, you can ask my sister, who finds the entire thing insulting...
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It's hard to take your professed care for the transgender community seriously when you constantly refer to Caitlyn as "him"-- just a pro-tip. That's basically step 1 of allying yourself with the trans community. Regardless of the reasons of why you think Jenner did it, referring to her as 'him' is basically the most disrespectful thing you could do not only to her identity, but to the identity of the group as a whole
 
For the record I know 4-5 trans people and about 20 LGB people who were all moved by Jenner's speech and actions-- not to mention a large group of friends who are very active in LGBTQ+ groups who all find Jenner's courage genuine and impressive, and very deserving of this award.

If your sister thinks it's disingenuous, she's in the minority-- I encourage you to find one legitimate LGBTQ+ group in North America who hasn't responded to Jenner's transformation and nomination positively.
 
dalamon said:
It's hard to take your professed care for the transgender community seriously when you constantly refer to Caitlyn as "him"-- just a pro-tip. That's basically step 1 of allying yourself with the trans community. Regardless of the reasons of why you think Jenner did it, referring to her as 'him' is basically the most disrespectful thing you could do not only to her identity, but to the identity of the group as a whole
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His point still stands in regard to the reason the award was given to caitlyn (publicity stunt) and the fact that there were likely others much more deserving
 
I'm a huge fan of Dala blatantly ignoring that Jenner's reps basically said that they could get an interview if they got an award. I mean, that probably doesn't matter at all.
 
dalamon said:
For the record I know 4-5 trans people and about 20 LGB people who were all moved by Jenner's speech and actions-- not to mention a large group of friends who are very active in LGBTQ+ groups who all find Jenner's courage genuine and impressive, and very deserving of this award.

If your sister thinks it's disingenuous, she's in the minority-- I encourage you to find one legitimate LGBTQ+ group in North America who hasn't responded to Jenner's transformation and nomination positively.
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These are great points, and I think it's wonderful that Jenner received so much support. Guilty as charged for my misuse of him/his vs. her-- allow me a misstep on an internet forum, will you? I'm a family man with children and a career, and while I have close experience to a person's transgender transformation, I don't enjoy the same level of LGBTQ+ social affiliation that you do. I do my imperfect best...

Look, I'm not debating that the transgender community celebrates a high-profile figure's transgender journey-- the fact that it has been documented thoroughly, and received in a generally positive manner, is mostly a good thing. My sister celebrates that aspect of the story herself, and as I've stated several times, I personally think that's awesome. But anyone who understands the history and meaning of this award, and the circumstances surrounding Jenner's nomination/receipt (Howard mentioned this), has to admit that the intentions are dubious. I know you disagree, and I am fine with that.
 
dalamon said:
For the record I know 4-5 trans people and about 20 LGB people who were all moved by Jenner's speech and actions-- not to mention a large group of friends who are very active in LGBTQ+ groups who all find Jenner's courage genuine and impressive, and very deserving of this award.

If your sister thinks it's disingenuous, she's in the minority-- I encourage you to find one legitimate LGBTQ+ group in North America who hasn't responded to Jenner's transformation and nomination positively.
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Is there a much larger percentage of gay Canadians? I thought I knew a lot of gay folks with, if I count acquaintainces, about a dozen people with about 8 of them being couples that I know. None of my other circle of acquaintances know generally any more than maybe 3 or 4 such folks. Considering they make up about 2-3% of the population odds are pretty slim, unless one is strongly "in" that portion of the community, of someone having upwards of 20 such folks in their circle of friends, especially well enough to poll them as to their reaction to the whole Jenner thing. Of the dozen or so folks I know, I think I have heard, through conversation or even facebook or what have you, maybe 5 of them comment on the Jenner situation at all. For the record, those 5 range from he is attention whoring (like 3 of them) to total ambivalence.
 
LogGrad98 said:
Is there a much larger percentage of gay Canadians? I thought I knew a lot of gay folks with, if I count acquaintainces, about a dozen people with about 8 of them being couples that I know. None of my other circle of acquaintances know generally any more than maybe 3 or 4 such folks. Considering they make up about 2-3% of the population odds are pretty slim, unless one is strongly "in" that portion of the community, of someone having upwards of 20 such folks in their circle of friends, especially well enough to poll them as to their reaction to the whole Jenner thing. Of the dozen or so folks I know, I think I have heard, through conversation or even facebook or what have you, maybe 5 of them comment on the Jenner situation at all. For the record, those 5 range from he is attention whoring (like 3 of them) to total ambivalence.
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Keep in mind that I just finished my senior year of college in the 21st century in Canada, and was very involved with the Students Union & student newspaper here-- which essentially expanded my social circle across all sorts of communities on a campus of 40 000 students. Not hard to comprehend why I know more LGBTQ+ ppl than you do.

In terms of percentages, I'm sure its either essentially equal, or slightly larger due to gender fluidity being less stigmatic nationwide than the States.
 
olden_undercover said:
These are great points, and I think it's wonderful that Jenner received so much support. Guilty as charged for my misuse of him/his vs. her-- allow me a misstep on an internet forum, will you? I'm a family man with children and a career, and while I have close experience to a person's transgender transformation, I don't enjoy the same level of LGBTQ+ social affiliation that you do. I do my imperfect best...
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I will-- it's just kind of surprising, because it's one of those things that I assume most folks knew.

Look, I'm not debating that the transgender community celebrates a high-profile figure's transgender journey-- the fact that it has been documented thoroughly, and received in a generally positive manner, is mostly a good thing. My sister celebrates that aspect of the story herself, and as I've stated several times, I personally think that's awesome. But anyone who understands the history and meaning of this award, and the circumstances surrounding Jenner's nomination/receipt (Howard mentioned this), has to admit that the intentions are dubious. I know you disagree, and I am fine with that.
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Fair!



In response to Howard, those claims have been vociferously denied by several camps.
 
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