Dennis Lindsey feels he owes Richard Jefferson a lot

[fishonjazz]

Oldtimer, your argument is essentially Trey Burke = fairy dust that will magically make Kanter-Favors work together because you say it will.

Actually I have seen kanter favors work just fine for hundreds of games.
(They are not rookies and this season is not the first glimpse we have had of them together..... but it has been our first glimpse of them playing together with john lucas so maybe there is something to the idea that they might play together well with burke...... plus the fact that they have played well together with burke just recently also supports that arguement)

 

[Fishsticks]

Ohhhhh this thread is testy

 

[franklin]

I think hayward burke favors and burks have probably been playing basketball all thier lives so I think they have probably played with great shooters before (randy foye) so I'm worried about them "getting used to playing with shooters."

I hope to get a better shooter than marvin next year

Think about what you are saying. Al Jefferson has played with shooters his entire life yet could never use them. How do you expect Kanter to get comfortable with the floor when he's nowhere near as skilled or alert as Big Al? Now, I don't think putting Kanter and Kanter only into an optimal learning environment based on shooters around him is the only thing that will help him -- he has to grow and become competent regardless of talent around him -- but what JimLes said is a very valid team building concept. This gets extended to playing Kanter in the low left post -- if that will be his role then he needs touches there.

 

[franklin]

Actually I have seen kanter favors work just fine for hundreds of games.
(They are not rookies and this season is not the first glimpse we have had of them together..... but it has been our first glimpse of them playing together with john lucas so maybe there is something to the idea that they might play together well with burke...... plus the fact that they have played well together with burke just recently also supports that arguement)

How about we let them prove it and earn it then. Kanter is playing better and if he continues then no doubt we will see more of this.

I don't get this desire to kill player development by experimenting with them before they are ready to handle the duties. They aren't lab rats.

 

[HeavenHarris]

How about we let them prove it and earn it then. Kanter is playing better and if he continues then no doubt we will see more of this.

I don't get this desire to kill player development by experimenting with them before they are ready to handle the duties. They aren't lab rats.

they kind of are tho

 

[fishonjazz]

Think about what you are saying. Al Jefferson has played with shooters his entire life yet could never use them. How do you expect Kanter to get comfortable with the floor when he's nowhere near as skilled or alert as Big Al? Now, I don't think putting Kanter and Kanter only into an optimal learning environment based on shooters around him is the only thing that will help him -- he has to grow and become competent regardless of talent around him -- but what JimLes said is a very valid team building concept. This gets extended to playing Kanter in the low left post -- if that will be his role then he needs touches there.

Notice I never mentioned kanter in my post since he has not been playing ball all his life.

Lol, you quote me to discuss the issue with my post and then talk about kanter in your post even though I never mentioned him

 

[fishonjazz]

How about we let them prove it and earn it then. Kanter is playing better and if he continues then no doubt we will see more of this.

I don't get this desire to kill player development by experimenting with them before they are ready to handle the duties. They aren't lab rats.

I was simply pointing out that people saying kanter and favors don't work, are actually incorrect.

The correct statement is that kanter and favors don't work together playing with john lucas immediately after a major injury to kanter while also starting games for the first time in thier nba careers.

 

[fishonjazz]

I don't get this desire to kill player development by experimenting with them before they are ready to handle the duties. They aren't lab rats.

Kill player development by experimentation?

Burks has been "experimented" with more than any player on the team and I have seen yourself, gvc, billy shelby, (basically "the smart guys") plus many of us dumb posters all talking about how great his development is coming along lol.

 

[fishonjazz]

I don't get this desire to kill player development by experimenting with them before they are ready to handle the duties. They aren't lab rats.

Also its funny how you talk about experimenting with players as killing thier development in the context of this discussion

However, in the past when burks minutes were all over the place and burks was being experimented with at point guard and playing off the ball you said corbin was doing burks a great service by teaching him new ways to play.

 

[franklin]

Notice I never mentioned kanter in my post since he has not been playing ball all his life.

Lol, you quote me to discuss the issue with my post and then talk about kanter in your post even though I never mentioned him

My bad. I'm a little slow and don't read things right pretty often. JimLes originally posted on the young guys, minus Hay-Burke as they are distributors, so I used Kanter as the best example to support that point. You don't agree that has some merit in development?

 

[HeavenHarris]

I'm a little slow

cant say i disagree

 

[franklin]

Also its funny how you talk about experimenting with players as killing thier development in the context of this discussion

However, in the past when burks minutes were all over the place and burks was being experimented with at point guard and playing off the ball you said corbin was doing burks a great service by teaching him new ways to play.

FTR, I've never wanted Burks to play point, it's a bad idea. What I said was Corbin did a great job teaching him how to run PnR (which even that sucked compared to his pretty solid pnr this season).

I've said several times that I'd much rather talk about player improvement (esp. Burks) but nobody is interested in anything positive so we roll on with the negativity.

 

[GVC]

I was simply pointing out that people saying kanter and favors don't work, are actually incorrect.

The correct statement is that kanter and favors don't work together playing with john lucas immediately after a major injury to kanter while also starting games for the first time in thier nba careers.

How many times does this need to be corrected?

1. When Enes, Favs and Trey share the court, the Jazz have been outscored by 18.8 points per 48 minutes (which is only slightly better than the Lucas-Favors-Kanter combo).

2. If we combine the 11/12 and 12/13 seasons, the Jazz were -2.66/48 when Enes and Favs shared the court. The Jazz were +0.88/48 when at least one of them was on the bench (to be fair, Enes and Favors outscored opponents last season, but each did better when paired with Millsap).

Basically, when Enes was a rookie, they got killed playing against bench players. In year 2 together, they did ok against bench players. In year 3, they've been massacred by starters. They don't seem to both be ready for prime-time (that is, Enes isn't ready). Still, Corbin has used the two of them together in the 4th in 2 of the last 4 games.

 

[fishonjazz]

FTR, I've never wanted Burks to play point, it's a bad idea. What I said was Corbin did a great job teaching him how to run PnR (which even that sucked compared to his pretty solid pnr this season).

I've said several times that I'd much rather talk about player improvement (esp. Burks) but nobody is interested in anything positive so we roll on with the negativity.

I think corbin has improved alec game despite playing him a lot less than I would prefer throughout his career.
I like what corbin is trying to do with hayward this year (see if he can be the main ball handler/go to guy) even if it doesn't work, I think its worth it to give it a try in a season that wins don't matter.
Favors offense is further along than I expected.
Corbin seems to be doing just fine with trey.

Now I would love to see some experimentation with kanter (lets see a couple of three point attempts) and a much longer leash.

Turn them younguns loose! (Mainly kanter and burks at this point) I think its time to lengthen the leash on em more to the point that if they make a few mistakes, they get a chance to continue thier time on the court to see how they respond to a few mistakes..... now there is the risk that if they make mistakes and are not punished that they will take steps back, but I believe they will be just fine if allowed a few mistakes per game without punishment and think eventually those mistakes will occur less frequently

 

[GVC]

Enes isn't being "punished" (**** I hate reading that ****). He didn't come close to handling the responsibility given to him to start the season, and was clearly overwhelmed. Ty's pulled back a bit, and is giving him an opportunity to succeed in a lesser role. Enes has looked a lot better the last few games, and (shocker) his role has been expanded.

 

[fishonjazz]

In year 3, they've been massacred by starters. They don't seem to both be ready for prime-time (that is, Enes isn't ready). Still, Corbin has used the two of them together in the 4th in 2 of the last 4 games.

I would say that the sample size this year of favors and kanter starting along with trey is very small (not sure it has even happened actually)

The fact corbin has used them together in the 4th in 2 of the last 4 games only proves my point..... which is saying that they don't work together is a untrue blanket statement because we have seen them work together well at times for stretches of games..... therefore its not impossible for them to work together, so more experimentation with them together along with burke seems like it should be a priority

 

[GVC]

I would say that the sample size this year of favors and kanter starting along with trey is very small (not sure it has even happened actually)

Why do they need to play together as starters? I still don't understand your fixation on starting.

The fact corbin has used them together in the 4th in 2 of the last 4 games only proves my point..... which is saying that they don't work together is a untrue blanket statement because we have seen them work together well at times for stretches of games

They were outscored in those 2 games.

therefore its not impossible for them to work together, so more experimentation with them together along with burke seems like it should be a priority

At this point, individual player development is more important for Enes than learning to play with Favors. Also, neither Frank nor I have stated that it's impossible for the two of them to work together.

 

[fishonjazz]

Why do they need to play together as starters? I still don't understand your fixation on starting.


.

Isn't the sample size small for them playing together at all this year since the team has been healthy?

 

[fishonjazz]

Also, neither Frank nor I have stated that it's impossible for the two of them to work together.

If its not impossible then isn't this the perfect season to find out how well they can play together?

I think a twin towers situation in the jazz future could be very effective and fun to watch and maybe not using them together this year will not mean we won't use them together next year and in the future with our new coach but this just seems like the perfect year to try it since wins and losses are not critical and it could help us with a better draft pick

 

[GVC]

Isn't the sample size small for them playing together at all this year since the team has been healthy?

Favors, Enes and Trey have played together for 68 minutes over 8 games. I don't have a lineup log (does anyone know where to get this for the current season?), but I think Trey was on the court when Enes and Kanter played together against the Lakers and Clippers. Without the lineup log, I couldn't say how much Enes and Favors have played together (with or without Trey) since Trey and Marvin have been healthy.

If its not impossible then isn't this the perfect season to find out how well they can play together?

I think a twin towers situation in the jazz future could be very effective and fun to watch and maybe not using them together this year will not mean we won't use them together next year and in the future with our new coach but this just seems like the perfect year to try it since wins and losses are not critical and it could help us with a better draft pick

I'd rather focus on not skipping steps, and putting each player in a position to succeed to aid in their development. Having them flounder out there together may stifle their development. It looks like Ty is willing to play them together against bigger frontcourts (albeit not starting). We'll see what happens when Kanter looks more comfortable and confident overall, and Enes-Favors look good together when they're used down the stretch against these bigger lineups. I doubt this will continue all season.