Education

[One Brow]

Awesome, you have a passion for education and I bet you are a good teacher. I'm curious, what are your "top 3" innovations you recently brought to your classes? What subject do you teach?

You know, 96% of teachers rate themselves as average or better? I have no idea how good I am, but since I only teach math part-time, I would have trouble putting myself as even average.

Top 3: the homework lottery, putting Mathematica into the Business Calculus course, allowing students to individually choose their own topic for part of the Liberal Arts class. Of course, these are not revolutionary, and innovative only in the sense that others aren't trying it; the concepts are my spin on successful techniques I have read about.

 

[silesian]

You know, 96% of teachers rate themselves as average or better? I have no idea how good I am, but since I only teach math part-time, I would have trouble putting myself as even average.

Top 3: the homework lottery, putting Mathematica into the Business Calculus course, allowing students to individually choose their own topic for part of the Liberal Arts class. Of course, these are not revolutionary, and innovative only in the sense that others aren't trying it; the concepts are my spin on successful techniques I have read about.

Cool, thanks for sharing.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

You know, 96% of teachers rate themselves as average or better?

That is why standardized testing is so important. I understand the "teaching to the test" argument against it but we really need a way to judge the effectiveness of different methods and educators in a system of such importance.

Test all the kids when they start the school year. Test all the kids again at the conclusion of the school year and note the delta. Maybe little Timmy is a dumdum who only advances 5% per school year when the state average is 17% per year. Sure that will drag a teacher's aggregate down but you can see a teacher's worth when you see little Timmy advance 3% in 2nd grade, 2% in 3rd grade, 3% in 4th grade, 10% in 5th grade, and 3% in 6th grade. Whoever that 5th grade teacher was did something special. In the same way, you should be able to easily see which schools over or under perform and allow movement.

It is the same idea I was expressing with Corner Canyon and their football program. A school's historical record in math should be as easy to see as their historical record in football scores. Computer Science achievement should be as easy to research as basketball achievement. Subsequent college acceptance, college graduation, and average salary of past students when they reach 24 years old should all be easy to see for parents when they want to decide which school to entrust with their kids.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

So I’m just curious @silesian, what would “innovation” look like at a typical public school? You seem to be arguing that schools are archaic yet I haven’t seen you describe what you actually dislike and what “innovation” would actually mean.

See my above answer to One Brow. The innovation would be making pertinent information easily publicly available. I have a hard time believing schools don't already have data on poor performing educators and poor performing schools but guard it as much as the law allows.

For students who attended Brighton High School, how many graduated college and what do they earn when they are 24-years old? How does that graduation rate and earnings history contrast to those who went to Hillcrest High School? How have those rates from those two schools changed over the past two decades? If you've got a kid who can see one school from his window but is technically in the boundaries of a different school, I think the parents should have access to that information and easily be able to choice-in to the better school for their kid.

 

[One Brow]

That is why standardized testing is so important. I understand the "teaching to the test" argument against it but we really need a way to judge the effectiveness of different methods and educators in a system of such importance.

This assumes that standardized testing efficiently measures the effectiveness of different methods or educators.

Sure that will drag a teacher's aggregate down but you can see a teacher's worth when you see little Timmy advance 3% in 2nd grade, 2% in 3rd grade, 3% in 4th grade, 10% in 5th grade, and 3% in 6th grade. Whoever that 5th grade teacher was did something special.

That is a completely unreasonable assumption, based on nothing but correlation.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

This assumes that standardized testing efficiently measures the effectiveness of different methods or educators.

Nope. All it has to measure is 'x' relative to the standard and so long as the standard does not change then the data is useful. Correlation is good enough to get actionable data. Certainly more can be gleaned and would be of great use. Experts can investigate the 'why' later, Get the data first and go from there.

 

[One Brow]

Nope. All it has to measure is 'x' relative to the standard and so long as the standard does not change then the data is useful.

That's ludicrous. If one isn't sure that one is measuring anything of value, talking actions on potentially worthless data could be counter-productive.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

That's ludicrous. If one isn't sure that one is measuring anything of value, talking actions on potentially worthless data could be counter-productive.

When it comes to choosing an educational institution for your own kids that is a judgement and decision you can choose to make but you shouldn’t have the ability to deny other parents information. These are public institutions and I believe an informed public is key to making sure their institutions are not mismanaged by incompetent or agenda driven administrators who wish to treat their stakeholders like mushrooms.

 

[One Brow]

When it comes to choosing an educational institution for your own kids that is a judgement and decision you can choose to make but you shouldn’t have the ability to deny other parents information. These are public institutions and I believe an informed public is key to making sure their institutions are not mismanaged by incompetent or agenda driven administrators who wish to treat their stakeholders like mushrooms.

Pinning overall educational achievement to the results of standardized testing is mismanagement and treating children like mushrooms.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

It is a useful data point. I agree that I'd like to see more and already mentioned that I'd like to see college acceptance rates, college graduation rates, and 24-years-old earning rates. I'd also like a career sector breakdown, criminal conviction rate, and even divorce statistics. This is all information that is gathered by the government and the government could make this available in a school-centric report. It isn't just how well a school is training you to answer a math problem, but how is a school preparing you to be a productive member of society?

Where I don't agree is the idea that because standardized testing isn't the bestest possible measure evar of a thing means that we shouldn't collect data.

 

[Deleted member 365]

In Utah it’s illegal for teachers to access state required standardized tests before a certain date (usually right before they’re administered).

In Utah, it’s illegal to have a state required standardized test count towards a student’s grade. So there’s zero incentive for a student to actually try.

In Utah, it’s illegal to require all students to take state required standardized testing. Parents (especially engaged and affluent ones) can and do opt their children out of standardized testing.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

In Utah it’s illegal for teachers to access state required standardized tests before a certain date (usually right before they’re administered).

In Utah, it’s illegal to have a state required standardized test count towards a student’s grade. So there’s zero incentive for a student to actually try.

In Utah, it’s illegal to require all students to take state required standardized testing. Parents (especially engaged and affluent ones) can and do opt their children out of standardized testing.

Sorry but I flat out don't believe any of what you list is a real barrier and is instead an excuse. I think you already know the work around. Here is how it works in a system not run by those not trying their best to weasel out of gathering this data:

Classes have provisional barriers to enrollment. No one has to take a test and everyone can get in to the basic class. There is a level of classes more advanced and to get in to those you need to surpass a certain testing threshold. There is even a tier above that for the highest testing students. The engaged parents and especially the affluent ones send their kids to test prep to help them score high on the tests so their kids will have the expanded opportunity. The test prep services don't have access to the state required tests either but still they are very good at knowing the types of questions that will be asked.

I think the reason you won't admit the obvious work around is the demographic composition of the students testing at the various thresholds. Asian and white students will be over represented in the higher tiers, and you'll get called racist for it so you put up objections to not have to deal with having possession of the data. For too many administrators, cowardice overshadows doing the right thing for students, parents, and society.