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Game Thread Feb 08, 2024 07:00PM MT: Jazz at Suns

Added to Calendar: 02-08-24

Saint Cy of JFC said:
There's a difference between half court offense and an overall offensive rating which is going to include fastbreaks, free throws, putbacks etc
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Ya I wish there was a way to just show half court offense on off.
One thing I think I remember from that game is that the Suns had us beat in fast break points pretty bad.

I consider free throws generated in the half court and putbacks in the half court to be half court offense though.

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fishonjazz said:
Ya I wish there was a way to just show half court offense on off.
One thing I think I remember from that game is that the Suns had us beat in fast break points pretty bad.

I consider free throws generated in the half court and putbacks in the half court to be half court offense though.

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I'm sure there is something somewhere that parses it out.

I wouldn't consider those things half court offense. They are good and shouldn't be ignored and Walker can certainly help with second chance points,

But simply the quality of looks when Walker is in the game is worse than when he's out and it's magnified when him and Collins play together. Playing offense is just visibly harder for everyone when he is out there, on both ends.
 
It's very possible for a non-ballhandling, non-shooting big to have both a great individual ORTG and a negative influence on team ORTG when he's on the floor.
 
Tremendous Upside said:
It's very possible for a non-ballhandling, non-shooting big to have both a great individual ORTG and a negative influence on team ORTG when he's on the floor.
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Exactly. I was looking for the stat that would show it. Have you found it yet?
I watch the games. I can see how Walker would have a negative effect on the offense. But then the offense goes ahead and keeps on scoring while he is in the game. Its kinda like the john collins thing. He plays great so its weird that his great play doesn't help the team but actually hurts it somehow. Kessler sucks individually on offense and mucks things up and clogs the paint yet the offense just keeps on scoring anyways. Just weird stuff.
 
Tremendous Upside said:
It's very possible for a non-ballhandling, non-shooting big to have both a great individual ORTG and a negative influence on team ORTG when he's on the floor.
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I don’t really understand how that could happen unless the ORTG without that player is some crazy high number.
 
Tremendous Upside said:
If I recall correctly, Gobert is one guy who's had seasons like this.
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A: We were talking about this particular game not a season.
B: Offensive ratings were almost always amazing with gobert on court vs off court. He was an advanced stats god. And not just for his defense. I think you recalled incorrectly.
 
Tremendous Upside said:
I don't think I did.
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You did. I had a bunch of discussions with people irl regarding Gobert when he was on the jazz. They were always saying things like "gobert can do anything but dunk. he clogs the paint. he cant shoot. he cant even make layups" but the fact was gobert played hella minutes and the jazz literally had the #1 offense in the entire nba. If he was in fact hurting the offense like you claim then it would be impossible to have the best offense in the nba with him playing so many minutes no?
 
I would like to get Cy's take on this one.

@Saint Cy of JFC do you remember if Gobert had a negative influence on team ORTG when he was on the floor with the jazz?
 
ORTG is a team rating even if you are looking at that stat for a single individual. All 5 players on the court earn the same rating even though they dont contribute equally.

So individual players rating doesnt actually tell about his impact, but about the fact that the lineups where he plays work well on offense.

Individual players contribution can be measure using counting stats, effectiveness and some advanced stats like on/off to some extent.

On/off can be a bit deceptive as you gotta look also who that player usually subs for.
 
HermanG said:
ORTG is a team rating even if you are looking at that stat for a single individual. All 5 players on the court earn the same rating even though they dont contribute equally.

So individual players rating doesnt actually tell about his impact, but about the fact that the lineups where he plays work well on offense.

Individual players contribution can be measure using counting stats, effectiveness and some advanced stats like on/off to some extent.

On/off can be a bit deceptive as you gotta look also who that player usually subs for.
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Ya the main thing I noticed (I started paying more attention after seeing certain posts) was that Kessler was in the game and the ball was going in the hoop a lot. I think that is what matters most.
I think some times we get a little caught up with thinking because Kessler can't shoot he is hurting spacing and that is hurting the offense but we might forget that he is a big body for screens and he (and players like him) provides a different kind of spacing. His man can't leave him to close out on a shooter when he is near the paint or a dunk will be given up or great offensive rebound positioning will be given up.
I saw multiple times when I was paying close attention where a jazz player would get a good look at a shot from the outside and Kessler man would leave him to go close out which would burn the defense for a kessler dunk or offensive rebound, or Kessler's defender would be unwilling to leave Kessler alone in the pant so they decided to give up the three (which we unfortunately often missed in this particular game).

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