You said he played well after I called you out. I wish I could participate in a game show where the host gives me the answer, then I get the prize because I now know the answer. Must be a wondrous world you live in.
Fes did it again!!!
- Thread starter dwayne_avail
- Start date
You said he played well after I called you out. I wish I could participate in a game show where the host gives me the answer, then I get the prize because I now know the answer. Must be a wondrous world you live in.
Fess had a +/- of +13 in just 13 minutes.
You can't let ain't...uh, I mean "hopper"...get to you, that is his schtick. Pretend ebonics and the sarcastic attitude that he hopes makes him seem superior to others. I typically read his posts for the giggle factor then move on to the meaningful posters.
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Personally I hope Fess puts it together more than just a little. He has had some impact in games - positive impact - that is refreshing. CJ and Fes are in the same boat as far as I am concerned, as in they both scare me when they are on the floor but more and more they are doing things leaning more toward good than bad. I sure hope they both find some consistency as the season progresses.
Hopper
Banned
The second unit played with great energy, and brought the team back from a deficit. They've done it before, and I hope they will do it again.
Evans had a +/- of 8 in ONLY six minutes.
Watson had a +/- of 9 in only 9 minutes.
Both of them played primarily ONLY during the 4th quarter comeback, which was basically our second team against their first team. A remarkable feat.
Fess was a part of that, so were others. For the game Fess shot 1-5, and missed some easy shots, but that doesn't mean he didn't make a valuable contribution.
Does this work?:
"it is no coincidence that whenever [Evans] came into the game, jazz was able to come back."
Does this?:
"it is no coincidence that whenever [Watson] came into the game, jazz was able to come back."
Or is that all just "coincidence?"
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Hopper
Banned
Fess and Evans started the 4th quarter, when the Jazz were down 6. 30 seconds into the quarter, Deron turned the ball over and Sloan yanked him and put in Watson. At that point, the Jazz are down 10. So the team went an additional 4 points down in a mere 30 seconds with Fess on the floor (not that it was Fess's fault, but that's the whole problem with tryin to rely on +/- stats to prove the contribution of an individual player).
6 minutes later, Deron came back, and Watson left, with the scored tied. So they made up 10 points in 6 minutes with Watson at point. During that time, Watson had 3 assists, blocked a shot on a guy a lot taller than him, and even had a rebound. During the same time, Fess had two fouls, but made other valuable contributions (3 rebounds and a tip-in).
Does anybody claim that "Watson did it?" Shouldn't he play point full time? Or shouldn't Sloan at least "develop" him? I guess they aint no Watson fanboyz who ONLY see what their boy does right, and what others (but not their boy) does wrong, so we don't git that.
Without Watson and Evans (who made 2 buckets) what "comeback" would Fess have engineered? Likewise, without Fess's 3 rebounds, what would Watson's +/- be? Sorry, but it's a team game. Fess played well, overall, despite some mistakes. But to suggest that the team can "only" outscore opponents when Fess plays, as the OP basically tried to do, is a little extreme
6 minutes later, Deron came back, and Watson left, with the scored tied. So they made up 10 points in 6 minutes with Watson at point. During that time, Watson had 3 assists, blocked a shot on a guy a lot taller than him, and even had a rebound. During the same time, Fess had two fouls, but made other valuable contributions (3 rebounds and a tip-in).
Does anybody claim that "Watson did it?" Shouldn't he play point full time? Or shouldn't Sloan at least "develop" him? I guess they aint no Watson fanboyz who ONLY see what their boy does right, and what others (but not their boy) does wrong, so we don't git that.
Without Watson and Evans (who made 2 buckets) what "comeback" would Fess have engineered? Likewise, without Fess's 3 rebounds, what would Watson's +/- be? Sorry, but it's a team game. Fess played well, overall, despite some mistakes. But to suggest that the team can "only" outscore opponents when Fess plays, as the OP basically tried to do, is a little extreme
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
I claim that Watson, Evans, and Fesenko did it together, along with AK and Miles (a pair that supports one of my many mantras of playing a shooter (Miles) and a defender (Kirilenko) more together on the wing). The problem is that your arguments resort to ridiculousness. Is anybody claiming that Fesenko OR Watson OR Evans should play "full time"? I think not. Will I say that Watson should get the nod in the next game for the first PG subbing in for D-Will? Yessir. Your hyperbole about "developing" Watson is weak because his development would most likely span getting enough time on the court to be more comfortable in the offense, which is a valuable thing anyway. And yes, I would support rewarding Evans with a few extra minutes in the next game, with a consideration of upping his minutes on a regular basis. There you go; no focus on one player.
The problem with your argument here is that if performance is repeated over time, then it stops being a single-game coincidence. So while no player is an island, the correlation between Fes being in the game and the Jazz engineering a comeback has increased with each passing game of the last 3 and 4 games, even though the lineups around him have varied somewhat.
If you're still gonna be a hater (of reasonableness, if not of singled-out players) then the tape shows--as you might have pointed out--that Fes controlled the paint far better than Big Al most of the time (more so after the first 3 to 5 minutes of play), but that it took players around him, especially given that Fes isn't a very good scorer. The prescription? Not to give Fes "full time", but rather to play him 10 to 20 MPG--definitely more than the sub-5 or sub-7 MPG through the first 6 games available and throughout the entire past season, when the same thing happened on multiple occasions: Fes came in the game, and the bleeding stopped, more often than not. The coincidence continues to dissipate, especially given that some of the faces have changed; Evans and Watson weren't even on the team last year.
What is promising is that Sloan might be recognizing the trend, and he has been playing KF more, and it seems like he's willing to bench even the starters from time to time, as he did with big Al 2 or 3 games before, and what he seemed to do with DW in Q4, allowing this serendipitous Watson-led run to unfurl. More often than not, when Price comes in at backup PG, I am disappointed, so despite Watson's defects, I'd like to see EW come in as 2nd string. Things might have run better if Watson had played during that 2nd-quarter stagnation of 5ish minutes (when Fes and a few others were in the game), for example.
One or more JazzFanz has argued in favor of starting Fes. I'm not that ambitious, and I'm not sure that it's the right decision anyway. But there is a better way than throwing him out with the other backups, devoid of many (or any starters) to bolster their performance. And vice versa. Note that in the 4Q run, two "starters" (CJ and AK) were on the floor, and things went much better. A rule of thumb IMHO is to have at least two of the first 6 in the rotation on the court at all times. How this is accomplished is to start subbing earlier in the first quarter, usually after 6 or or maybe 8 minutes have elapsed.
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Lost_Jazz_Fan
Member
I'd like Fes a heck of a lot more if he actually used his size and frame to his advantage. He still looks mightily confused with the ball in his hands which is crazy since he seems like 10X the player he was last season.
NotDeadYet
Well-Known Member
Agree on all points. I recognize sarcasm on occasion too, and will also point out that when you make the opponent work hard throughout the game (aka make THEM play defense as well as defend against them), they will likely miss more FT's late in the game due to fatigue.
Absolutely no question when Fes has his head in the game and plays aggressively, he is a major factor. The whole bench was HUGE last night; Watson was aggressive on defense and attacked bringing the ball up on offense, CJ was in attack mode, AK was only starter with them and rebounded, scored and moved the ball, Evans with much-needed energy around the basket both offense & defense, and Fes clogged the middle on D, and contributed on offense. No huge numbers here, but the bench's main job is to GIVE THE STARTERS A NEEDED BREAK and at best hold the fort, give some energy, and maybe put a dent in the opponents lead. They did that last night plus more... GREAT JOB!!!
NotDeadYet
Well-Known Member
And our reward... 1st place in the NW... Yeah, baby!!!
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
Oops, he did it again baby.
One Brow
Well-Known Member
If Fesenko had lost those 25 pounds two years earlier, he would have gotten more development. He only has himself to blame for that. As for what he deserves now, I think his minutes are about right. He has many positives, and several negatives as well.
unluckyseventeen
Well-Known Member
Fes' biggest difference is that he can now make decisions in our offense, instead of being a walking beanbag capable only of getting dump-off passes and put-backs for scoring opportunities. That difference alone means a lot to our offense.
It still is no coincidence that his on-floor +/- is still huge. Putting him on the floor absolutely closes the lane off, and has for a while. However, I don't think he's ready for starter's minutes or to be the main center on the team. He's much better to put in to give a much different look later in the game when the other team is already wearing down and he's still fresh. Sloan has been playing him to perfection so far.
It still is no coincidence that his on-floor +/- is still huge. Putting him on the floor absolutely closes the lane off, and has for a while. However, I don't think he's ready for starter's minutes or to be the main center on the team. He's much better to put in to give a much different look later in the game when the other team is already wearing down and he's still fresh. Sloan has been playing him to perfection so far.
GVC
Well-Known Member
I've been a proponent of giving Fes more minutes, but there's a limit to his effectiveness.
When Fes hits the court, he brings a completely new element to the Jazz defense (SIZE!). The opposing offense struggles while figuring out how to change their offensive sets to combat this new element. It stands to reason, then, that the longer Fes is on the court, the better the opposing team is at finding ways to score with Fes out there. The defensive havoc Fes creates diminishes over time.
On the other side of the court, Fes is frequently lost. The defense may pay more attention to him at first, but will likely learn how to better play the Jazz with Fes on the court as time goes by. The Jazz offense, as a result, may get worse with every successive minute Fes is on the court.
If these two suppositions hold true (again, this is, in part, speculation), Fes is best when given short spurts of time, when a shakeup is needed, especially. When he is given extended minutes, however, it may turn into an advantage for Jazz opponents.
Fes has clearly been a difference maker this season. He has forced opposing teams out of their comfort zone/routine whenever he's been give time. Whether that would still be the case if Fes were given lots of PT, we don't know.
When Fes hits the court, he brings a completely new element to the Jazz defense (SIZE!). The opposing offense struggles while figuring out how to change their offensive sets to combat this new element. It stands to reason, then, that the longer Fes is on the court, the better the opposing team is at finding ways to score with Fes out there. The defensive havoc Fes creates diminishes over time.
On the other side of the court, Fes is frequently lost. The defense may pay more attention to him at first, but will likely learn how to better play the Jazz with Fes on the court as time goes by. The Jazz offense, as a result, may get worse with every successive minute Fes is on the court.
If these two suppositions hold true (again, this is, in part, speculation), Fes is best when given short spurts of time, when a shakeup is needed, especially. When he is given extended minutes, however, it may turn into an advantage for Jazz opponents.
Fes has clearly been a difference maker this season. He has forced opposing teams out of their comfort zone/routine whenever he's been give time. Whether that would still be the case if Fes were given lots of PT, we don't know.
LifeOnaPlate
Well-Known Member
If you post this in a fake accent/dialect maybe he will take you more seriously.
Siromar's statement that "The fact that Fes was in the game every single time the Jazz came back is irrelevant." is ridiculous and illogical. Siromar you could argue that it was a coincidence, which is not a good argument , but at least it is an argument, but to say it is irrelevant has no logic behind it whatsoever.
I have not stated that Fes was in the game every single time the Jazz came back, but if it is true, that is a strong endorsement of Fes as having a valuable impact. If true, Fes should get lots of playing time , at least until it stops working.
I have not stated that Fes was in the game every single time the Jazz came back, but if it is true, that is a strong endorsement of Fes as having a valuable impact. If true, Fes should get lots of playing time , at least until it stops working.
I am on your side. I am pointing out that dismissing the impact Fes has is ridiculous.
Hopper
Banned
Who are you pointing it out to? Has anybody in this thread "dismissed" Fess's impact?