candrew
Well-Known Member
Yes, the list of players who were released from the binding chains of The Jazz coaching staff and went on to have great careers is quite extensive.
Fesenko close to deal with Ukrainian team
- Thread starter davidbenoit
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Yes, the list of players who were released from the binding chains of The Jazz coaching staff and went on to have great careers is quite extensive.
Duck Rodgers
Well-Known Member
I've always equated Euroleauge with being about mid-tier NCAA basketball because of course you're missing the stars. A lot of good players that just quite aren't NBA players, with a few exceptions. And of course some rule dynamics that make the game a little different. Am I wrong in that assessment? Maybe a little maturity/experience of the Euro players puts it into a higher category than mid-tier NCAA, but I think Fesenko could easily play there as I think he would've destroyed high level NCAA had he had a chance there. It's hardly a leap to be suggesting Fez should be getting better Euroleague contract offers. I don't think he was a total whiff, probably just not a NBA player that teams feel like would develop into something more. He's good enough to be a career 12-15 NBA roster player if that's what you want him for.
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
The coaching staff didn't develop Millsap as much Millsap developed Millsap.
https://appliedsportsscience.com/smart-training-and-hard-work-help-paul-milsap-shine/
I have no evidence that the coaching staff did anything special to develop Hayward, either, and it appears that he started to produce early, suggesting further that the Jazz coaches didn't have much to do with it (although his college coaches might have).
There's no denying that Fesenko could've worked harder, but that can be said for all kinds of players--some who were elite anyway. My underlying point here, though, is the lack of effort and insight that the Jazz coaching staff has made to develop those crucial role players in critical spots (especially the C spot and the 2 spot). Game after game, the coaches tolerated (or ignored) damaging performances by players--Boozer, Okur, Jefferson, sometimes Miles, Derek Fisher (who was probably putting forth top effort) come to mind--and let them stay out there, even when their net contribution to the team was close to zero (or worse). Meanwhile, Fes had his off-court antics (which were damaging to his career, but less of an impact on the team performance) but did not affect the team success when he was on the court (except for not meeting his potential), and yet he was not even rewarded when he did well, much less being given a minimal amount of time to get into rhythm and develop on the court--an essential ingredient that the likes of Millsap and Hayward were granted.
Some players have the self-motivation that lunchpail Jazzfanz crave; others don't come ready made. Of COURSE this conversation would be moot if Fesenko had had better self-discipline, but his was contributing enough on the court to not be relegated to fewer minutes in four years than Greg Ostertag (another notoriously poorly self-motivated player) in one or two. And that's what differentiates Gregg Poppovich from Jerry Sloan (and likely his successor); a case can be made that Rick Carlisle and maybe Tom Thibodeau was able to motivate and unify a team in a way that Ol' Jer never did. I fear that a coach such as Ty with far less experience (and not even the hard-nosed demeanor as a semi-substitute for effective leadership) will be less capable than his predecessor. May TC prove me wrong.
This is about strategy and coaches' ability to be consistent leaders and reward positive performance and minimize poor performance. There doesn't appear to be much analysis by the Jazz coaching staff on matchups and individuals' impact on team success (or lack thereof), even when an interior presence was so lacking; the same thing happened when Fish's "character" wasn't enough to compensate for near-40% shooting and being pwned night after night at the 2 spot. With Jerry, it was coaching by the gut, and that gut never achieved a title, which a more capable coach could've accomplished--as well as developing and disciplining more players that make up a title contender along the way.
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Darkwing Duck
Well-Known Member
Always good for a laugh.
You can beat a horse to death, but you can count on InGameStrategy to beat it into bits after it's already dead.
I wish.
That could be said for most players. Most players who develop and shine put in their own work a lot during offseason. So extending your (il)logic NO coach should ever be credited for a player's development.
Rest of your post is the same nonsense you have been vomiting here since forever. That is, if a coach doesnt run the top 2 or 3 lineups that YOU want him to run based on the great flawless 82games.com database, then that coach is an idiot, who hasnt developed any player and deserves to be fired. Anything else new?
And who are the Ostertags and Fesenkos that Thibodeau turned into great players with his coaching "insight"? Or for that matter Popovich?
If anything, Sloan has turned more second round picks into decent-looking role players in the Jazz system
When they leave the Jazz and go play in another system, they look like crap.
But yet Sloan is the idiot because Fesenko turned out to be the Gomar Pyle of the Jazz rather than the Hakeem Olajuwon you envisoned him to be. You should be a sitcom writer in your next life.
Except that list isnt available at 82games.com. So give Ingamestrategy a break
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
That's why my moniker isn't "InPlayerDevelopment"; the leadership within games (and before games) is usually more correlated to success. And unfortunately for you, there are too many examples--Rick Carlisle being the latest--of coaches shifting the attitude of the Mavs (thanks in part to Avery Johnson before him) to actually caring about defense, something that Sloan was not successful in doing, mainly because he didn't enforce it and just let players have a free pass.
As I have said in finitum, I don't need 82games for my argument; it's merely one convenient, ready-made framework (and still not perfect, as if any system were).
I don't really have to justify my system over the garbage that Corbin and the Sloan (especially over the last few years) put forth. Their lack of leadership and ineptness (and the repeated times that they let games implode on their own, in no small part by being ignorant to matchups and individual performances on a given night) speak for themselves.