Flat Tax and Tithing

[One Brow]

Fair point. Conditioning is a factor. I'm going to play devil's advocate for a second just for fun and to expand the breadth of the discussion.

To what extent do you justify compensating for conditioning? Is it fair to society to OVER-compensate for conditioning?

Conditioning will always be there. We're all a victim of it at one level or another. And, ironically, for those that are able, hard work can overcome conditioning. in my vastly limited experience dealing with people on both sides of the "success" fence, it is my impression that those who can overcome conditioning and resist the negative influences around them also tend to be those who take advantage of opportunities when presented to them, and in the right way.

I disagree with the premise that we need to afford people excessive opportunity and aide because they've been conditioned. To think that people don't have opportunity to improve their life right now is just flat-out wrong. Just because people refuse to leave their comfort zone and take drastic action to improve their lives and situation doesn't mean they haven't been afforded opportunities.

At some point people have to be responsible for their own actions, regardless of their past, or regardless of the social pressures they feel around them. Even more so than with right or wrong, legal or not, they should be held accountable for those decisions that directly impact their own well being and prosperity.

Taking from the rich and giving to those that refuse to use it properly or even at all for their own long-term well being is nothing but waste.

We can lead the horse to the water, and then let him decide whether to drink or not. We don't have to drug the horse, transport it via horsey-ambulance on a horsey-stretcher of feather pillows, give it a mani/pedi on the way, give it a phone so it can call it's horsey friends, gently crane it over to the edge of the water, and make sure it has a flexi-straw in his mouth.

I don't disagree with the literal meaning of your words. However, when you are using terms like "OVER-compensate for conditioning" and "excessive opportunity and aide", it does make me wonder whether you think that would be any more compensation would be over-compensation and whether more opportunity and aide than currently exist would be excessive. It seems to me that you are deliberately loading your language.

I would also say that your notion of 'hard work overcoming conditioning' is itself the product of conditioning, and not a well-evidenced phenomenon.

Further, in this thread I've been primarily talking about investing in children and possibly young adults. Most are not at the stage where we consider them to be responsible for their own actions. Even men in their 20s are generally known for being irresponsible.

 

[candrew]

I agree it's an indictment, but I think we would disagree on who was indicted in that particular example.

I don't have much use for Sharpton generally, but I also don't have much use for middle-class white pastors telling him the "better way" to protest things. Too often, the "better way" is the one that makes the white pastors and/or their congregations the most comfortable.

I was a young teen at the time - but I don't think our religious leaders were "telling" Reverend Al how do anything. They were merely suggesting an alternative to marching through our neighborhood. But you'd think at the very least they could do both.

It also bears mentioning that the only reason he was marching through our neigborhood was because it was pre-dominantly white. There were no racial incidents associated with the march.

 

[One Brow]

I must have missed the part where the race of the pastors was ever mentioned. Or even their wealth status for that matter.

I'm not surprised.

As for the better way comment. That is all perspective. The ones that the march felt their way was better because it made them more comfortable.

Of course. That's why they marched. Marching is always so much more comfortable than sitting down to a picnic.

Yes, I know that's not how you meant "comfortable". However, I do agree with your point here, despite the joke.

As for an earlier comment you made. I agree. Why not join forces, have a large public joint prayer and then those that want to march can.

I appreciate the support.

 

[One Brow]

It also bears mentioning that the only reason he was marching through our neigborhood was because it was pre-dominantly white. There were no racial incidents associated with the march.

Then, how did they get to be predominately white? I assume you mean there weren't any lynchings/beatings/etc., but most racial incidents are much more subtle and harder to detect than that.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Quick story. My grandfather once risked 80% of his total worth to start a company in a depressed town that was desperately in need of jobs. He obviously believed in his idea and understood the risks.. but also was genuinely trying to help the town.

As part of the negotiation to put the required millions into the venture, he gained approval from both local and state government to have relief from both corporate income tax and sales tax for a period of years. As a result of years of struggle, unassuredness, and fortitude, the venture was considered a success. More than 700 employees were hired (with less than 10% at minimum wage) and the town then drew in more business because the community could better support those businesses. These brought even more jobs and now that town is flourishing.
I sincerely believe had it not been for my grandfather and forward thinking politicians the town would have failed or still be stuck in rough rut.

But you know what? Even though my grandfather receivee multiple humanitarian of year awards.. he still had some that resented his success ane felt it was unfair that he got to build his company free of taxes in the beginning.

 

[Stoked]

Then, how did they get to be predominately white? I assume you mean there weren't any lynchings/beatings/etc., but most racial incidents are much more subtle and harder to detect than that.

Ugh.

 

[candrew]

Then, how did they get to be predominately white? I assume you mean there weren't any lynchings/beatings/etc., but most racial incidents are much more subtle and harder to detect than that.

I think you're getting a little off the point - the original assertion is that Reverend Al Sharpton is/was not interested in ending racial tension. And I shared an anecdotal experience that suggests that this is true. I'm not interested in a sociological discussion.

 

[One Brow]

I think you're getting a little off the point - the original assertion is that Reverend Al Sharpton is/was not interested in ending racial tension. And I shared an anecdotal experience that suggests that this is true. I'm not interested in a sociological discussion.

I'm just pointing out that your anecdote doesn't mean when you purported it to mean. I don't even disagree about Sharpton.

 

[PearlWatson]

Quick story. My grandfather once risked 80% of his total worth to start a company in a depressed town that was desperately in need of jobs. He obviously believed in his idea and understood the risks.. but also was genuinely trying to help the town.

As part of the negotiation to put the required millions into the venture, he gained approval from both local and state government to have relief from both corporate income tax and sales tax for a period of years. As a result of years of struggle, unassuredness, and fortitude, the venture was considered a success. More than 700 employees were hired (with less than 10% at minimum wage) and the town then drew in more business because the community could better support those businesses. These brought even more jobs and now that town is flourishing.
I sincerely believe had it not been for my grandfather and forward thinking politicians the town would have failed or still be stuck in rough rut.

But you know what? Even though my grandfather receivee multiple humanitarian of year awards.. he still had some that resented his success ane felt it was unfair that he got to build his company free of taxes in the beginning.

That pretty much describes the insanity of the classism behind "social justice" in a nutshell.

 

[leftyjace]

I don't disagree with the literal meaning of your words. However, when you are using terms like "OVER-compensate for conditioning" and "excessive opportunity and aide", it does make me wonder whether you think that would be any more compensation would be over-compensation and whether more opportunity and aide than currently exist would be excessive. It seems to me that you are deliberately loading your language.

In my opinion, any additional outright aide should be in the form of educational opportunity. I'll address a little further down.

I would also say that your notion of 'hard work overcoming conditioning' is itself the product of conditioning, and not a well-evidenced phenomenon.

Perhaps. But then we get into whether our personalities or certain personality traits are nature or nuture. I am a strong believer that it is both - and in many cases, nature is much more strong than nurture. Determination, focus, hard work, etc. are just as likely to be a product of inherent ability than conditioning.

Further, in this thread I've been primarily talking about investing in children and possibly young adults. Most are not at the stage where we consider them to be responsible for their own actions. Even men in their 20s are generally known for being irresponsible.

Children? Absolutely. Young Adults? Absolutely worth the effort, even if by that time the results are less likely to be markedly favorable.

I believe that a significant part of that investment is teaching them how to be responsible. But this is a greater condemnation of the way kids are raised these days versus in previous generations. This is a great article on the subject:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200411/nation-wimps

I realize men in their 20s are generally known for being irresponsible, but it was not always so. Men in their 20s now that are idiots deserve to reap the rewards of their actions. I know I did, and I'm better for it.

 

[PearlWatson]

Wow, I've never seen this side of leftyjace.

 

[One Brow]

Perhaps. But then we get into whether our personalities or certain personality traits are nature or nuture. I am a strong believer that it is both - and in many cases, nature is much more strong than nurture. Determination, focus, hard work, etc. are just as likely to be a product of inherent ability than conditioning.

I agree that it is both, and there is an interaction between them.

Children? Absolutely. Young Adults? Absolutely worth the effort, even if by that time the results are less likely to be markedly favorable.

I agree.

I believe that a significant part of that investment is teaching them how to be responsible. But this is a greater condemnation of the way kids are raised these days versus in previous generations. This is a great article on the subject:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200411/nation-wimps

I realize men in their 20s are generally known for being irresponsible, but it was not always so. Men in their 20s now that are idiots deserve to reap the rewards of their actions. I know I did, and I'm better for it.

This is the nostalgia effect. When was there a time when authors in their 60, when writing about the young men in their day, talked about about how responsible they were?