Gun Control vs School Shootings in Terms of Child Deaths

[LogGrad98]

Ok, so let's just lay it out there. I posted a rant recently about gun control and school shootings and I thought it would be interesting to see where people stand, in our little forum at least.

The question is, AT WHAT COST IS IT WORTH IGNORING GUN VIOLENCE AND ENSURING THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS IS NOT INFRINGED IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM?

Or, what cost is worth maintaining our right to bear arms and keep all guns out there safely out of the hands of the government and firmly in the hands of hobbyist, militarist preppers, mentally ill people, and criminals. The stats show that in republican lead states gun laws tend to get looser after school shootings, and in democrat states they tend to get tighter. But obviously this is a tough nut to crack.

We are also, by far, the worst in the entire world for gun violence and particularly school shootings. The graphs I have seen are ridiculous.

School Shootings by Country 2025

Comprehensive data on school shootings by country through the years, including recent incidents like those in Serbia and Czechia.

worldpopulationreview.com

Total gun deaths we are similarly among the worst. In fact the only countries worse than use are due to significant gang and drug-related activies.

Gun Deaths by Country 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

So let's just look at child deaths. Firearms are the #1 cause of child mortality in America. How about that?

Child and Teen Firearm Mortality in the U.S. and Peer Countries | KFF

Firearms were responsible for 20 percent of all child and teen deaths in the U.S. for both 2020 and 2021, compared to an average of less than 2 percent in similarly large and wealthy nations. This puts the U.S. far ahead of peer nations in child and teen firearm deaths.

www.kff.org

So, what is the cost we are willing to pay for virtually unfettered access to guns for pretty much everyone? Let's put it in terms of children killed per year, how about that? How many child deaths are you willing to accept annually to keep the right to keep and bear arms completely free and clear of any regulation, other than what is on the books right now, which has been proven to be all but completely ineffective?

This is not a place for "yeah, well, we can't do nothing about it anyway" or ******** excuses like that. No, this is simply about what your 2nd amendment right means to you, put in terms of child deaths. It is a more inflammatory and indirect way to look at willingness to accept stricter gun laws around protecting children specifically. If you have ideas how we can do that, please share. Also, I am making this anonymous so you can feel safe in expressing your opinion, but if you want, tell us why you voted how you did.

 

[Bucknutz]

Just clarifying here, are you wanting an emotional response or a logical one? I think people can answer this both ways. The child deaths pushes the emotional side of humans to answer it in an emotional way.

 

[LogGrad98]

Just clarifying here, are you wanting an emotional response or a logical one? I think people can answer this both ways. The child deaths pushes the emotional side of humans to answer it in an emotional way.

Yeah I did that purposely because we often don't take consequences into the equation sufficiently in my opinion. That is why I added levels that represent both, kind of. Honestly this is a somewhat snarky thread, but I was curious how we would think about this if we consider the consequences of such decisions, which up to now has been about 2.5k child deaths per year that simply didn't need to happen. So in short, vote how you feel best about it. But that is where the discussion begins.

I voted for step #2. I think we need some mandatory laws on the books, not full-on confiscation but way way better application of existing laws and tighten many of them up. I am in favor of mandatory confiscation of guns owned by felons, for example. I think of this in terms of the "1000 guilty men" thing. I would rather see 1000 convicted felons lose their right to gun ownership than see another child killed needlessly, etc.

Yes yes, none of this is a one for one. But somewhere we have to start really taking this seriously. And gun control is merely one side of a many-faceted issue, and that a multi-faceted side of its own.

So vote how you feel best about it, and what would you do about it, if anything. If you could wave a magic wand, what would you change to protect kids from gun violence and reduce gun violence in the country as a whole?

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Just clarifying here, are you wanting an emotional response or a logical one? I think people can answer this both ways. The child deaths pushes the emotional side of humans to answer it in an emotional way.

Really? He's rigged the statistics by including suicides and assigning mandatory motives with the different levels. If you support the 2nd amendment then you want 3,000+ children to die.

Banning guns doesn't cause zero kids to die, as most of these are suicides and they'll find another way to suicide. Far more non-suicidal kids die from motor vehicles, and he isn't asking the same question about cars or assigning motives to owning a car.

He's framing an issue in a way that facilitates his moral grandstanding.

 

[LogGrad98]

Here is another interesting breakdown for more context.

Gun deaths among U.S. children and teens rose 50% in two years

In 2021, there were 2,590 gun deaths among U.S. children and teens under the age of 18, up from 1,732 in 2019.

www.pewresearch.org

Homicide was the largest single category of gun deaths among children and teens in 2021, accounting for 60% of the total that year. It was followed by suicide at 32% and accidents at 5%. Among U.S. adults, by contrast, suicides accounted for a 55% majority of gun deaths in 2021.

 

[fishonjazz]

I think that you should be able to have guns, though not all guns with huge magazine capacities or silencers or bump stocks etc, but you should be required to take safety training every so often and you should be required to keep them in a safe. If your gun is used to hurt a human then you are responsible for that and face criminal charges. Of course background checks should be mandatory. Maybe even have some kind of aptitude/intelligence testing required to buy a gun. (though that one is definitely more extreme)

Regardless of what is done we will always be world leaders for gun deaths and shootings unless other countries stupidly decide its a good idea to let all of their citizens have guns. At this point the cat is out of the bag and cant be put back. Its too late sadly.

My guess is that if you could bring the Framers of the constitution, specifically James Madison, from 1791 (my daughter is learning about the constitution in school right now. Its been fun for me to learn along with her) into the future and see the kind of guns/firepower available to almost every tom dick and harry in the US and show them the statistics of how many people die due to this right that we have then I think that the Framers would prefer to replace the 2nd amendment with something else.
They would probably be horrified with what they had done.

 

[fishonjazz]

Yeah I did that purposely because we often don't take consequences into the equation sufficiently in my opinion. That is why I added levels that represent both, kind of. Honestly this is a somewhat snarky thread, but I was curious how we would think about this if we consider the consequences of such decisions, which up to now has been about 2.5k child deaths per year that simply didn't need to happen. So in short, vote how you feel best about it. But that is where the discussion begins.

I voted for step #2. I think we need some mandatory laws on the books, not full-on confiscation but way way better application of existing laws and tighten many of them up. I am in favor of mandatory confiscation of guns owned by felons, for example. I think of this in terms of the "1000 guilty men" thing. I would rather see 1000 convicted felons lose their right to gun ownership than see another child killed needlessly, etc.

Yes yes, none of this is a one for one. But somewhere we have to start really taking this seriously. And gun control is merely one side of a many-faceted issue, and that a multi-faceted side of its own.

So vote how you feel best about it, and what would you do about it, if anything. If you could wave a magic wand, what would you change to protect kids from gun violence and reduce gun violence in the country as a whole?

I also voted for step 2 but had a hard time deciding between 2 and 3.

 

[LogGrad98]

I think that you should be able to have guns, though not all guns with huge magazine capacities or silencers or bump stocks etc, but you should be required to take safety training every so often and you should be required to keep them in a safe. If your gun is used to hurt a human then you are responsible for that and face criminal charges. Of course background checks should be mandatory. Maybe even have some kind of aptitude/intelligence testing required to buy a gun. (though that one is definitely more extreme)

Regardless of what is done we will always be world leaders for gun deaths and shootings unless other countries stupidly decide its a good idea to let all of their citizens have guns. At this point the cat is out of the bag and cant be put back. Its too late sadly.

My guess is that if you could bring the Framers of the constitution, specifically James Madison, from 1791 (my daughter is learning about the constitution in school right now. Its been fun for me to learn along with her) into the future and see the kind of guns/firepower available to almost every tom dick and harry in the US and show them the statistics of how many people die due to this right that we have then I think that the Framers would prefer to replace the 2nd amendment with something else.
They would probably be horrified with what they had done.

Yeah, I agree here. Also, I purposely didn't list any of them as "NO GUNS ANYMORE ANYWHERE" as even in Australia and other countries with stricter gun laws, you can still own guns. It is just a much stricter vetting process that leads to gun ownership, including training, classes, practice with instructors, and registration of all guns owned by the citizenry. Germany is not a lot different. They also have strict vetting rules, including psychological evaluation and proof of expertise and need to own a gun. Why can't we require a psychological evaluation here as well?

Gun laws in Germany

You must understand gun laws in Germany if you own a gun. Here's a guide to gun control laws for civilians and the German police, and stats on gun crime.

www.iamexpat.de

Gun laws of Australia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[PJF]

Mentally unstable people find guns regardless of the laws. No new laws would change that in any way.

 

[fishonjazz]

I also think another thing that would help and doesn't have anything to do with guns or gun laws would be to change the culture.

Don't allow video games like call of duty and grand theft auto. Don't allow movies like John wick. Dont allow movies that glorify violence.

But we are talking about freedom of speech again so that's a no go.

Basically the freedoms we have (free speech, right to own guns) make it impossible to give us more freedom to not get killed by each other.

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[Al-O-Meter]

View attachment 17251

So with the laws we have now, there were 60 gun related homicides. The option above showing "the laws we have are fine" is next to 1,001 - 3,000 dead kids.

 

[fishonjazz]

Mentally unstable people find guns regardless of the laws. No new laws would change that in any way.

If you say "mentally unstable people can go to walmart and buy a gun and also can get them illegally" then that gives more options that "mentally unstable people can only get their guns illegally"

Making it more difficult for people who shouldn't have guns to get them is the goal.

By your logic we should sell guns to 3 year olds since a 3 year old could aquire a gun by illegal means.

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