I agree. If they are going to kill themselves there are plenty of other painless methods. Pills, turning on your car ina closed garage, poison...
Gun Control
- Thread starter larryselbows
- Start date
I agree. If they are going to kill themselves there are plenty of other painless methods. Pills, turning on your car ina closed garage, poison...
I think guns are a more surefire (pardon the pun) method, but that's not a gun control argument in my opinion. I'm typically not in favor of laws that protect people from themselves and that's exactly what gun control to prevent suicides would be. So unless gun control advocates explicitly state that in part their goals are to get guns away from people so they don't use them to kill themselves then those numbers should be excluded from any honest debate on gun control.
I also think all legitimate self-defense uses that result in the death of the attacker should be excluded.
I also think they should break it down according to deaths from legally obtained firearms used by their rightful owners vs illegally obtained firearms. And it should go further and specify if the gun death was a result of a confrontation between two criminals, where the only victims were criminals who were actively engaged in criminal activity.
I think the numbers would start to look a lot different and we could make some meaningful decisions based on reality.
But I think this current push is focused on diminishing America's gun culture, not in reducing mass shootings or gun crime in general. One Brow has expressed that ideology time and time again: less guns = less gun death. And that's the bottom line. He doesn't care if many of those gun deaths are suicides, or gang vs gang shootings using illegally obtained and possessed firearms. Eventually, by arbitrarily reducing legal gun ownership, illegal gun usage will fall.
And I thought liberals didn't believe in trickle-down economics.
I missed this earlier.
YES! Guns are used constantly to deescalate potentially dangerous situations. Gun control advocates don't want to acknowledge this fact. But a gun produced in the face (not literally "in the face") of someone who is trying to use physical force in a situation usually causes that person to reassess what they're doing. Now, this is not to be used willy-nilly anytime you think someone is getting out of line, but if someone is threatening you or your family with physical violence and you fear for life and limb it is completely legitimate to brandish a firearm in order to let them know you are not the victim he is looking for. And this is how guns are used more than 95% of the time!
I was being facetious in my comment, but yeah... every source I've checked indicates that more than half (right around 60%) of all gun deaths are suicides.
To follow up, I went to the CDC website and browsed their death stats for 2010.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/deaths_2010_release.pdf
It broke down like this:
Total gun deaths: 31,672
Gun homicides: 11,078
Gun suicides: 19, 392
Other*: 1,202
This breaks down roughly as; suicide 61%, homicide 35%, other 4%. That means almost 2/3 of all gun deaths are self inflicted.
*Other is defined as Unintentional, Legal Intervention/War, and Undetermined.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/deaths_2010_release.pdf
It broke down like this:
Total gun deaths: 31,672
Gun homicides: 11,078
Gun suicides: 19, 392
Other*: 1,202
This breaks down roughly as; suicide 61%, homicide 35%, other 4%. That means almost 2/3 of all gun deaths are self inflicted.
*Other is defined as Unintentional, Legal Intervention/War, and Undetermined.
The cry of the unenlightened individualist. What's really ironic is that, if I thought every gun owner would act as responsibly as you describe yourself acting, I would see no need for gun control at all. The reason you would not be allowed to do, or not do things like carry on a university, is completely unfair to you.
Since I don't know what you mean by "all along", and I have had different points at different times in this thread, I only am making a claim about this particular small section of the discussion since the refusal to allowed concealed carry on universities was brought up.
That would be here:
https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php?13575-Gun-Control&p=488590&viewfull=1#post488590
I feel I was very clear that I was objecting to a bad argument, specifically the dichotomy that was being put forth.
As one of the former A students who was also one of the surly kids at times, I find your ableist story to be the perfect example of the type of dichotomy that I was complaining about in the post I linked to. You can't divide the kids into separate groups of "A students" and "surly kids". If you reverse that, and allow only the A students onto the playground, you'll still get fights.
I'll offer the same replay: laws the limit access have an effect on everyone, even those who are law-abiding; also, people who are law-abiding 99% of the time will still have access to guns in the other 1%.
I agree there is no quick solution to the issue of mass shootings; I have said that before in this thread.
How about we meet half-way: we should only include the difference in successful suicide rates between those who use guns and those who use other methods?
The myth of the always rational person. While sometimes people who choose suicide are rational (and those that are tend to be more successful with any method), most are not. They take too many pills, or too few, because they don't do research on the subject. The noose doesn't get tied correctly, the garage isn't fully sealed, etc. However, guns are highly efficient even with no research and no effort. My mother had an extra 20 years because she didn't use a gun. She became the primary daycare provider to three of her grandchildren because she didn't use a gun. She would have been the first person to tell you her suicide was a mistake, and that she was not thinking rationally.
So, every time you say that you're "not in favor of laws that protect people from themselves", you're supporting people actively acting against what would be rational, due to mood swings, loneliness, desperation, etc. Do you support letting every irrational person out of mental hospitals?
As for what I believe in regarding economics and similar issues, I believe in doing what works, whether it goes by the name "liberal" or "conservative".
From Bronco's statistics, there are 2-3 unintentional gun deaths every day, in addition to the 37 homicides and 25 suicides that would not have been deadly if guns were not available. So, do you have any reason to think your depiction happens 55 times a day in the US?
Ah, the cry of the self deluded enlightened one.
Most gun owners are as responsible as I am and the facts prove it. Even factoring in suicides and deaths in self defense cases the overwhelming number of gun owners are responsible owners.
You are trying to create laws based on what you think might happen. That is a poor, crappy reason to enact laws and I reject it.