How does this make you feel?

[Bronco70]

They don't "simply believe" things, they go out of their way to ensure they are enforced.

This is what bothers me. EVERYONE knows where the church stands on homosexuality. This is not breaking news. I have NO PROBLEM with people opposing that. That's their right. God bless the first amendment (oops - sorry). But suggesting that the church is wrong for pushing its agenda is asinine. In regards to prop 8, they acted well within their rights. Just like all those that opposed it, who also spent more money doing so.

The church is not a legislative or judicial entity - they cannot ENFORCE anything. They can exercise influence, which is exactly what they did. Ultimately, the church had NO vote. That measure was decided by the people who cared enough to cast their ballot.

I understand that frustration (and the gay community has plenty of reason to be frustrated) creates a need for an outlet, but the church is just an easy target. Got an issue? Must be their fault.

 

[UGLI baby]

Gay kid at school: I'm going to the protest tonight. Are you?
Other gay kid: What protest?
Gay kid: The one protesting the LDS Church and their "hate" speech.
Other gay kid: Wait, what? Where did you hear about this?
Gay kid: I read about it on the Utah Pride website. They said that Packer gave a hate talk about gays and how they should be cured. They're intolerant of us and hate us.
Other gay kid: Wow, I can't stand the LDS Church. They make me feel really bad with all their hate. What's their problem? I mean, why do they hate us so much?
Gay kid: They're hateful bigots. Let's go protest.

Damn I didnt realize anyone was close enough to hear us.

 

[One Brow]

The church is not a legislative or judicial entity - they cannot ENFORCE anything. They can exercise influence, which is exactly what they did. Ultimately, the church had NO vote. That measure was decided by the people who cared enough to cast their ballot.

Do you realize part of the rationalization for not taxing religions is the separation of church and state? When you start getting the churches involved in politics, you open them up to that. Would you like to the the LDS taxed so they can exercise their influence?

 

[C l u t c H 385]

When people believed the earth was flat, there was no difference between science, philosophy, and religion. There were just "natrual philosophers". so, you can't really says "science" had any opinion on the subject.

The point is modern science isn't always right. And in this case there is nothing that has really been proven. One person's beliefs are just as valid as another's. I'm not even religious but it's ****ing annoying when the people bitching about intolerance are the most intolerant themselves.

 

[Duck Rodgers]

You should probably make this topic when you don't go to one of these things. I think everybody here just assumes you attend any rally that is anti-morals. You used to sport a ****ing NAMBLA sig for Gay Buddha's sakes.

 

[C l u t c H 385]

You should probably make this topic when you don't go to one of these things. I think everybody here just assumes you attend any rally that is anti-morals. You used to sport a ****ing NAMBLA sig for Gay Buddha's sakes.

It's good for the boy, and fun for you.

*Link removed by moderator*

 

[unluckyseventeen]

Yea, damn anyone that makes political contributions based on their beliefs. ****ers.

You know it's illegal for a church to give money to a political cause, right? That's the basis behind "separating church and state". I mean, I thought this **** was pretty obvious but I guess I need to spell it out.

I'm feeling a "oh yeah? Well this is what it really is" pissing match coming on, so to clarify, it's illegal to donate money to a political cause as a non-profit without also paying taxes on it. That's what the church did. It's not technically "illegal", but it is highly frowned upon as our government operates (seemingly) by people being able to give their own opinions and decide what happens with law, as opposed to big organizations taking control of it and pushing their own agenda.

I'm sure the actual legalities are a pointless web of information that I'd rather not get into. But, nonetheless, they did something illegal and got penalized for it. The whole "church and state" thing was a theology from the founding fathers that pretty much still stands today, but with no actual laws behind it. The worst it is, is unethical. But the LDS church doing something unethical and illegal at the same time looks pretty bad.

 

[unluckyseventeen]

I understand that frustration (and the gay community has plenty of reason to be frustrated) creates a need for an outlet, but the church is just an easy target. Got an issue? Must be their fault.

So, them getting fined for donating money to a political cause was just for fun, right? Why else would they get fined if they didn't do anything illegal?

Exercising influence by talking is one thing, but exercising it financially is totally different. To see a church go out of their way just to prevent you from doing something you want to do (that doesn't hurt the church) has to be pretty ****ing annoying, don't you think? Besides, aren't churches supposed to be teaching forgiveness and acceptance? Fail.

I'd be pretty pissed off at the church if I was a gay person living in California, too. It's not like they are getting the backlash for no reason, and it goes far beyond simply their stance or opinion. I can say I love the Jazz all I want but it doesn't mean anything until I put my money where my mouth is. The church did.

They should learn their place and stay out of political affairs... worry about themselves and what they are trying to promote instead of getting in everyone's way, preventing them from what they want to do. Unless, in fact, what they are promoting is something that ultimately stirs up society creating more problems than it solves.. which it does.. you'd think they would have a better sense of judgment and keep their opinions to themselves just so it doesn't cause so many problems among society. Seems like the church's intentions of improving society are outweighed by their intentions of making their members feel like they're better than everyone else in society. The irony here really is hilarious.


Besides, isn't this the modern day civil rights movement? The exact same story unfolded concerning black people in the US finally gaining rights equal to any non-black person. How long until it's finally integrated and the church changes their tune (again), making them look like jackasses again? You know it's going to happen, and you'd be ignorant to think this situation and the civil rights movements of the 70's aren't exact copies of one another.

 

[franklin]

You don't seem to be understanding what I've said multiple times. There has been a recent rise in the reports of gay youth who killed themselves. It is MY belief that what Packer said contributes to the bullying these youth receive. Not only that, but it makes a young gay mormon hate themselves, and see themselves as an abomination. We are holding him accountable by protesting what he said in support of all the gay youth who may be affected by it. Why is this so hard to understand? Anyway I'm leaving to head up to the protest now. I may post a report of how it went when I get back.

Even though you've said this multiple times, it's still nothing more than a ******** argument seeking to silence freedom of speech. Just say what you mean and move on. You want to silence all speech that doesn't agree with your agenda. Nothing more.

Since the answer to your question is most likely "not one child", and you probably know that, you're either engaging in silly hyperbole or made an attempt at sarcasm that was in *very* poor taste.

Are you really suggesting that Mormon children in, say, California are not harrassed and treated poorly because of their beliefs? That's pretty damn silly. If you aren't then are you arguing they won't commit suicide for being treated as social outcasts [because of their beliefs]? That's pretty damn silly. [

Do you realize part of the rationalization for not taxing religions is the separation of church and state? When you start getting the churches involved in politics, you open them up to that. Would you like to the the LDS taxed so they can exercise their influence?

I'm generally against every tax proposal, but this sounds fair enough. Churches should pay for the services they recieve. That goes for most non-profit orgy's too.

 

[Bronco70]

So, them getting fined for donating money to a political cause was just for fun, right? Why else would they get fined if they didn't do anything illegal?

Exercising influence by talking is one thing, but exercising it financially is totally different. To see a church go out of their way just to prevent you from doing something you want to do (that doesn't hurt the church) has to be pretty ****ing annoying, don't you think? Besides, aren't churches supposed to be teaching forgiveness and acceptance? Fail.

I'd be pretty pissed off at the church if I was a gay person living in California, too. It's not like they are getting the backlash for no reason, and it goes far beyond simply their stance or opinion. I can say I love the Jazz all I want but it doesn't mean anything until I put my money where my mouth is. The church did.

They should learn their place and stay out of political affairs... worry about themselves and what they are trying to promote instead of getting in everyone's way, preventing them from what they want to do. Unless, in fact, what they are promoting is something that ultimately stirs up society creating more problems than it solves.. which it does.. you'd think they would have a better sense of judgment and keep their opinions to themselves just so it doesn't cause so many problems among society. Seems like the church's intentions of improving society are outweighed by their intentions of making their members feel like they're better than everyone else in society. The irony here really is hilarious.


Besides, isn't this the modern day civil rights movement? The exact same story unfolded concerning black people in the US finally gaining rights equal to any non-black person. How long until it's finally integrated and the church changes their tune (again), making them look like jackasses again? You know it's going to happen, and you'd be ignorant to think this situation and the civil rights movements of the 70's aren't exact copies of one another.

Just FYI, I am not interested in your tangents. You choose to completely ignore my point, and I am not going to sit here and draw you a picture. So I choose end our personal discussion at this point. You will, no doubt, declare yourself victorious - obviously I would only discontinue this argument because I am whamboozled by your crisp and infallible (not to mention objective) logic. So allow me to extend my congratulations in advance. You win an internet debate!

So you go ahead and keep rambling about prop 8.

 

[Bronco70]

Do you realize part of the rationalization for not taxing religions is the separation of church and state? When you start getting the churches involved in politics, you open them up to that. Would you like to the the LDS taxed so they can exercise their influence?

We should extend that logic and make religion illegal across the board. Then people who vote won't be influenced, and we'll all be better off.

 

[The-Joker]

Pride was the other major factor that the brethren talked about. I think that in humility, anything is possible, but definitely not in pride. For us to get over any of our vices, problems, and pestilences we cannot go into the recovery process like an innocent prisoner going to Alkatraz. We all sin, that's something straight people and gay people have in common. And for any of us to get over sin and live a righteous life, it's not going to be through a "there I did it, can I go now" attitude.