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How long does a SUCCESSFUL tank need to be?

Top 4 is equal odds for the bottom 3, so just for ease of calculation. #1 option is obviously subjective, but the basic idea is a guy that you can start building around.
I'm just making these numbers up, but it seems like 2 out of every 3 years there are 2 guys that are worth building around. So if you are bottom 3, 3 years in a row you would have a 54% chance at drafting the guy. If you assume that other teams are bad at drafting or there are more than 3 guys some drafts and you can get the guy at 3, then you have an 80% chance.
 
When Stockton and Malone left it seemed like two seasons and in season 3 the Jazz were competitive again. Again that was with a different ownership and a different business plan and different cash flow needs.
 
When Stockton and Malone left it seemed like two seasons and in season 3 the Jazz were competitive again. Again that was with a different ownership and a different business plan and different cash flow needs.

Well, the plan was likely different to begin with back in 2003. The Jazz were supposed to be the worst team not just in the league but perhaps in NBA history. Of course, some goofy kid from Russia added like 30 wins to the win column almost singlehandedly.

The Jazz may well have ended up with Dwight Howard had that not happened.
 
The second idea would be to calculate the odds that a single draft has a top 10 player in it. Then assume that player would be taken by your team at number 1, and predict how likely it is that you get the number one pick in a draft that has a top 10 player.
Again, just making numbers up, but let's just say there is 1 top 10 player every other draft. You would have to be bottom 3 bad for 6 years in a row to have a 42% chance at getting a top 10 player. If it's more like 2 players in a draft, but only every 3 drafts, then the probability would be 55% after 6 years of bottom 3.
 
If you combine my last two posts, then if you have a bottom 3 records for 3 years in a row then you would have a 50 to 80% chance at drafting a guy that's worth building around with a 20 to 30% chance of drafting a top 10 guy.

All with the obviously incorrect assumption that you are best in class at drafting and if that guy is available you will find them and draft them.

Anyway I think the correct answer based on probabilities, draft class strength fluctuations, and fan base patience is 3 years.
 
I don’t think there’s a right answer other than be patient and don’t rush. An OKC tank where you’re lucky enough to trade for a prospect that’s going to turn into an mvp caliber player then yes, five years. Sadly in our case we need to either get lucky or building takes 8-10 years.
 
Love this thread. I would personally re-frame this question - "How long does it take to build a playoff or championship caliber nucleus?"

The answer boils down to 1) draft lottery luck and 2) ownership and front office personnel. How good are they at their jobs?

High-quality franchises (Thunder, Spurs - lucky bastards, Celtics) have historically rebuilt very quickly. Others (Kings, Wizards, Pelicans, the Knicks prior to recent history) have generally sucked forever. Market size and revenue considerations are a significant part of the equation, but still only part of the equation.

Honestly, this question makes me miss the previous ownership regime. We were playoff competitive (or better) for 30+ seasons and were only in the cellar once that I can remember (04-05).

We have the draft assets to get much better, and very quickly. DA clearly has the track record of rebuilding rosters but let's see what he can get done here.

IMO, if we really wanted to think big - go get Sam Presti and pay him whatever (and I mean - WHATEVER) it takes to get him to Salt Lake City.
 
Thank you for your excellent analysis. I guess my question is what are the criteria to determine whether the tank was successful tank and whether the benefits exceed the costs.

For example, after suffering five years of intentional misery, what is the expected outcome? An NBA title or multiple titles, an NBA finals appearance or multiple finals appearances, a conference final or multiple conference finals, etc.? Will it be considered a successful tank if the team becomes a perennial high 40s or 50 win team that routinely makes the playoffs and occasionally makes a deeper run (i.e., second round or conference final) but never makes the finals? I don't think that we can talk about good vs. bad or successful vs. unsuccessful tanking without specifying what the criteria are for determining this.

Closely related to this is at what point do the benefits of the tank exceed the costs? How many years of playoff appearances and how deep in to the playoffs constitute sufficient benefits that they begin to outweigh the costs of enduring five years of what we endured the other day vs. the Lakers?

Of course, another factor that must be considered is the opportunity cost. In lieu of tanking, what were the other options and associated outcomes? Admittedly, this one is hard to assess, but we can assume a variety of scenarios and compare our projected tanking outcomes to these.

From my perspective, the discussion of tanking focuses disproportionately on the perceived benefits without considering these other factors. I'm not trying to be contrarian for contrarianism's sake here, I'm genuinely interested in how people would answer these questions. This analysis provide a good benchmark to facilitate the discussion.
 
Honestly, this question makes me miss the previous ownership regime. We were playoff competitive (or better) for 30+ seasons and were only in the cellar once that I can remember (04-05).
Honestly it’s the last regime that caused us to have to trade our stars. The Jazz were trapped, and we’re only going to get worse with no way to improve the team.
 
Love this thread. I would personally re-frame this question - "How long does it take to build a playoff or championship caliber nucleus?"

The answer boils down to 1) draft lottery luck and 2) ownership and front office personnel. How good are they at their jobs?

High-quality franchises (Thunder, Spurs - lucky bastards, Celtics) have historically rebuilt very quickly. Others (Kings, Wizards, Pelicans, the Knicks prior to recent history) have generally sucked forever. Market size and revenue considerations are a significant part of the equation, but still only part of the equation.

Honestly, this question makes me miss the previous ownership regime. We were playoff competitive (or better) for 30+ seasons and were only in the cellar once that I can remember (04-05).

We have the draft assets to get much better, and very quickly. DA clearly has the track record of rebuilding rosters but let's see what he can get done here.

IMO, if we really wanted to think big - go get Sam Presti and pay him whatever (and I mean - WHATEVER) it takes to get him to Salt Lake City.
I think we often forget that the Spurs had four losing seasons before getting Wemby (including two with wins in the 30s and mediocre draft position). They've got their guy now (yes, thanks to luck), but this year is likely to be their 6th losing season in a row.
 
Thank you for your excellent analysis. I guess my question is what are the criteria to determine whether the tank was successful tank and whether the benefits exceed the costs.

For example, after suffering five years of intentional misery, what is the expected outcome? An NBA title or multiple titles, an NBA finals appearance or multiple finals appearances, a conference final or multiple conference finals, etc.? Will it be considered a successful tank if the team becomes a perennial high 40s or 50 win team that routinely makes the playoffs and occasionally makes a deeper run (i.e., second round or conference final) but never makes the finals? I don't think that we can talk about good vs. bad or successful vs. unsuccessful tanking without specifying what the criteria are for determining this.

Closely related to this is at what point do the benefits of the tank exceed the costs? How many years of playoff appearances and how deep in to the playoffs constitute sufficient benefits that they begin to outweigh the costs of enduring five years of what we endured the other day vs. the Lakers?

Of course, another factor that must be considered is the opportunity cost. In lieu of tanking, what were the other options and associated outcomes? Admittedly, this one is hard to assess, but we can assume a variety of scenarios and compare our projected tanking outcomes to these.

From my perspective, the discussion of tanking focuses disproportionately on the perceived benefits without considering these other factors. I'm not trying to be contrarian for contrarianism's sake here, I'm genuinely interested in how people would answer these questions. This analysis provide a good benchmark to facilitate the discussion.
Yeah, I agree that these things are worth thinking about. Part of the problem is it's hard to figure out (especially for us not involved with the finances of the NBA). How much money does the team forego because of long term losing? Is it money mostly out of the owner's pocket or does the impact have a deeper effect on the team's long term fortunes? I don't know the answer and I don't know of any way we can really estimate it well.

As for the criteria of a successful tank, who knows? You have some Jazz fans that are yearning to tank because they think it's the only realistic way we can get past the second round of the playoffs. Some say that a successful tank requires a championship appearance, if not victory. Lots of people have lauded tank jobs in the past that haven't really taken teams further than we got with DM and RG (such as the Sixers's tank). Others say that the tank is successful if you get a top 5 (10, 15?) player.

And in reality, most "tanks" don't really net then whole set of key players for a team. Do we give Denver credit for a successful tank when they picked up Jamal Murray with the 7th pick? Or Houston for getting the good but probably not completely transformative trio of Amen, Jabari Smith, and Jalen Green? Or, what role do we think tanking plays in OKC's success, since they have the league's best record even with their only top-5 pick (Chet) missing most of the season?

So figuring out what tanking success is is kind of like trying to nail jello to the wall. It's probably best to try to at least hint at what we think it means for us when we talk about it (which I hope I've done in this thread), even if we know others will have different definitions. For me, I usually go by what I think many of the pro-tankers among Jazz fans were thinking when they insisted that we needed to tank: getting beyond the 2nd round and getting a player better than Donovan Mitchell.
 
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