How many productive players have the jazz lost for nothing in return?

[Hotdog]

What teams freely switch out their best players and are successful?

Jazz need to freely switch out Favors then. All we need is one year to see he isn't elite defensively enough to cover his mediocre offense, so we need new best players in the revolving door policy.

I dont know of any other team that has a conscience about trading players.

Jazz do. True story

 

[Hotdog]

Every team that doesn't make the conference finals should blow up the team. True story.

Every team should blow up their team with Al Jefferson on it.

True Story.






awaiting reps..........

 

[Hotdog]

That's just it...they AREN'T easy pieces to move. How do you trade someone earning $14M to a contender? Contenders are generally over the cap so salaries have to match. And not many contenders have $14 or even $8M in a salary that they necessarily want to dump. They're trying to ADD a player to get better, not make a lateral move. So if they have an asset they want to move, it's generally a broken down vet with multiple years left on a contract. Is that worth a lousy pick in the late 20's? Much better off just saving the cap space and getting a FA in the summer market.

Jazz could have easily used that method to sign guys like Millsap, Carroll, etc. But the time is right to go with the new players, add a lottery pick (even if it closer to 10 than 5) and THEN STILL have cap space for a very good FA or two up to $15M or so. That's where the Jazz will be sitting this summer due to Lindsey's savvy moves to rid Utah of long-term commitments.

I know its not easy, but its not impossible.


Using Al as the example doesn't tell the whole story. Millsap was on a great deal and is beloved around the league.

I swear to god I could have delt the **** out of Millsap.

Lets not give credit to GM's just because they are GM's. I think its clear that their are plenty of GM's in the league in way over their head. Or would you defend every GM? Do you think its possible you might have homer blinders on? Just saying.

 

[Hotdog]

I killed this ****ing thread. Its mine. I own this ****.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

The Jazz never should have traded for Al Jefferson. No matter what was going on with the team. It was a terrible trade.

Instead of doing what they did. They should have kept Mathews, kept Koufus, or work on some other trade, and kept the two firsts. Oh, and they should have Drafted Paul George. They reached for Hayward. A lot of people thought George was gonna be good.

So instead of all that mess, our core would have been Dwill, Mathews, Paul George, Millsap, and some serviceable center.

That was my exact thinking during that whole process. I wanted all those players playing for the team. Instead the Jazz got all retarded and did a bunch of stupid ****.

Who knows, maybe everything would have been a lot different with Dwill too. That team could have been pretty damn good.

But ya, its done. Whatever. After trading for Big Al, I knew the Dwill trade had to be done. Wasnt even mad about that. Where we are now I like, but it could get really screwed up if they dont follow through with the tank. On record about that.

That's a tremendous amount of revisionist history.

First off, Hayward outplayed George in college and then in the workout they had for the Jazz. Hayward wasn't taken out of his projection range. George was predicted to be so good that he was projected to go Number 1.....I mean in the 11-15 range, just like Hayward.

Second of all, the Jefferson trade was an understandable trade. I certainly wasn't pro Al Jefferson given the metrics, but Boozer was gone, Okur was done, and you have Deron Williams in his early prime that you need to build around. That's a win now time table. Paul George was a rookie who didn't do anything for his team in his first year, so that wouldn't have changed the Williams trade. Millsap was unproven as a starter at that point, and an unproven starter and Fransisco Elson as your front court is quite the lineup that you would want blown up anyway. Add a statistically below average SG in Matthews, and a rookie SF, and its a pretty bad team. So in the win now scenario the Jazz were in, they got a proven scorer in Jefferson and compete for playoffs. I don't recall a proven big being on the market for late firsts and backup big other than Jefferson.

So I don't believe for one second that the Jazz could ever, EVER have had a core that you mentioned. Not one chance.

 

[Hotdog]

That's a tremendous amount of revisionist history.

First off, Hayward outplayed George in college and then in the workout they had for the Jazz. Hayward wasn't taken out of his projection range. George was predicted to be so good that he was projected to go Number 1.....I mean in the 11-15 range, just like Hayward.

Second of all, the Jefferson trade was an understandable trade. I certainly wasn't pro Al Jefferson given the metrics, but Boozer was gone, Okur was done, and you have Deron Williams in his early prime that you need to build around. That's a win now time table. Paul George was a rookie who didn't do anything for his team in his first year, so that wouldn't have changed the Williams trade. Millsap was unproven as a starter at that point, and an unproven starter and Fransisco Elson as your front court is quite the lineup that you would want blown up anyway. Add a statistically below average SG in Matthews, and a rookie SF, and its a pretty bad team. So in the win now scenario the Jazz were in, they got a proven scorer in Jefferson and compete for playoffs. I don't recall a proven big being on the market for late firsts and backup big other than Jefferson.

So I don't believe for one second that the Jazz could ever, EVER have had a core that you mentioned. Not one chance.

1. Wesley Mathews is a might fine basketball player.

2. How do you or anyone know whether or not Deron would have re-signed or not?? Pretty presumptuous isnt it? Seron still lives in Utah btw, so I dont think its money in the bag he would have left. He might have liked what he saw in George. Probably would have never had the ball throwing incident either.

3. Keeping Dwill, and Mathews would have been easy as pie. Drafting George would have been even easier. He was projected to go in that ninth slot by everyone. Hayward was projected 19th by most.

4. Giving Millsap his chance to start would have been an even easier choice for me. I believed in him all along.

5. Not ttading for Al....the easiest. Just do a little scouting. Not hard.



It would have been beyond easy to form that core (Dwill, Matthews, Millsap, and George.

Are you kidding me?


Whats the problem?

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Matthews was a 9-2-1.5 player as a rookie in 24 minutes with solid but not spectacular defense. He was a less athletic, better shooting DeMarre Carroll his rookie year.

It's also presumptuous to think a contending team would step back and start Deron, a second year part time starter, a rookie taken in the late lottery, a first year starter, and some random center. That's a rebuild. A team with a star in Williams is NEVER going to do that unless they time traveled.

 

[Hotdog]

Matthews was a 9-2-1.5 player as a rookie in 24 minutes with solid but not spectacular defense. He was a less athletic, better shooting DeMarre Carroll his rookie year.

It's also presumptuous to think a contending team would step back and start Deron, a second year part time starter, a rookie taken in the late lottery, a first year starter, and some random center. That's a rebuild. A team with a star in Williams is NEVER going to do that unless they time traveled.

Im not say George would have been ready right from the start. Just saying its more likely they could have signed Deron because Deron might have liked the pick better. Dont think thats a stretch. George looked pretty promising from the start. Also, Bell was a disaster, that was a dumb *** signing.. Im sure that weighed on Deron too. And I dont think the Jazz even were worried that much about whether Deron would leave or not. They just didn't like him. I dont really blame them, but its besides the point. He probably got more volital after the team struggled too much. Like throwing the ball at Hayward.

Another important point is that its likely Jerry never would have quit midseason because the teams future would look better to Deron and he wouldn't have pissed Jerry off and Jerry probably would have been happier. I bet he hated losing Mathews. Mathews did everything right but be really tall. Played like a vet right from the start. Jerry loved him. Thats why he started. Jerry probably hated all the change.

 

[Stifle Tower]

Drafting George would have been even easier. He was projected to go in that ninth slot by everyone.

Are you kidding me?


Whats the problem?

Link or it didn't happen. George was NOT projected to go in the 9th spot by everyone. The picks from 9-16 were all over the place. In fact, on average, Cole Aldrich was ranked higher than George in most mocks. I will concede Hayward was ranked lower. Credit KOC for at least taking Hayward ahead of Aldrich, Babbitt, Henry, Patterson, etc.

Matthews would have cost the Jazz $9M+ due to the luxury tax. Wes was a nice player, he was coming off a good season, but struggled in the playoffs. 28 other GM's thought that deal was absurd. It was unprecedented in league history. Decision was made not to go into luxury tax territory to keep him.

AS for Deron, I agree, no one knew. You have to go on gut feeling and the Jazz a) had sat down and spoken with him several times and asked him about his intentions - Deron was evasive each time, b) had seen him openly defy a HOF coach by refusing to run plays, c) knew that his home state team of Dallas - amongst others - were lining up to make offers. You do that deal 100 times out of 100. And it was widely praised by other GM's and media outside the state.

 

[Stifle Tower]

And I dont think the Jazz even were worried that much about whether Deron would leave or not. They just didn't like him. I dont really blame them, but its besides the point. He probably got more volital after the team struggled too much. Like throwing the ball at Hayward.

Simply not true. Early in his career, Deron talked about sharing his input on FA's. He was very supportive of the Big Al acquisition. Case in point: he called Jefferson and told him he was going to make Big Al an all-star. Yes, the team struggled. Deron could have been a team leader, looked in the mirror and remembered he didn't set the world on fire his first few months as a rookie. Instead, he became a prima donna, dribbling the ball for 10-15 seconds at a time with all his crossovers instead of trying to run plays.

 

[vegas]

https://jazzfanz.com/poll.php?pollid=638&do=showresults
Hack, I know you don't remember it, but just a year ago you said Hayward and George were equal.

Also, your "core" is still a 2nd round playoff team. Timing is off. George is heading toward his Prime, Dwill is already on a sharp decline. Mathews and Milsap are great guys, but personally I'd take at least 4 other current rosters over that one.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

View attachment 3121
https://jazzfanz.com/poll.php?pollid=638&do=showresults
Hack, I know you don't remember it, but just a year ago you said Hayward and George were equal.

Also, your "core" is still a 2nd round playoff team. Timing is off. George is heading toward his Prime, Dwill is already on a sharp decline. Mathews and Milsap are great guys, but personally I'd take at least 4 other current rosters over that one.

Well done, vegas. Hack, it's time to admit that even if the scenario you are proposing would have been a better pathway, you wouldn't have taken it in real time.