If Boozer isn't worth $80 mil, who is?

[billyshelby]

Here's the Top 20 "listed" 4's by points and age (ESPN):

1. Nowitzki (34)
2. Bosh (26)
3. Stoudemire (27)
4. Randolph (28)
5. Boozer (28)
6. West (29)
7. Aldridge (24)
8. Harrington (30)
9. Landry (26)
10. Scola (30)
11. Smith (24)
12. Green (23)
13. Gallinari (21)
14. Beasley (21)
15. Murphy (30)
16. Blatche (23)
17. Lewis (30)
18. Brand (31)
19. Villanueva (25)
20. Millsap (25)

Garnett at 34 is "listed" as a 5, as is Duncan, Jefferson, and Lee who would obviously make this list. Of the old guys: Nowitzki, Duncan, and Garnett are all superior players to Booze and have been physical marvels throughout their careers. They're the rare breed. The rest of the list is made up of young studs in their prime, or coming into it. Booze will be 29 at the beginning of next year. He's never going to be as good as Garnett, Nowitzki, and Duncan, and the chances of him aging like they did are remote at best. A big part of the "value" of guys like Bosh and Stoudemire is their ages. Getting an extra year or two of a player's prime is huge in a 5 year deal (and I'm not defending the Stoudemire signing which I think is crazy considering they can't insure him.) Based on that list, guys over 30 playing power forward in the NBA don't hold up well. Check back 7 years ago and you see names like Abdur-Rahim, Juwan Howard, Keith Van Horn.

Abdur-Rahim is a great example, much like Brand is the modern example. Abdur-Rahim was every bit as good as Boozer until about 28. He got hurt, and was never the same player. Likewise, Brand was every bit as good as Boozer until he hit 29. The best hope for a guy like Booze is probably Jamison. But Jamison has been an iron man over the course of his career. Point is, it's a lot to hope for that Booze will still be THIS Booze at 31, 32, and 33 over his contract with the Bulls, and that doesn't include the possibility he'll get a 6th year at 34.

 

[SaltyDawg]

I expect Utah to be a borderline playoff team this year, but I think that they would be a borderline playoff team with Boozer, too...

And that is the main problem- most of the clowns on this board think just because the Lakers are better than the Jazz the Jazz must totally suck, and rebuilding is in order.

Again, the only teams that beat the D-Will/Boozer Jazz in the playoffs were teams that played in the NBA Finals. The Jazz had all kinds of injuries last year (every year) and even gave away 2 players for nothing in return, but were still in contention for the 2nd seed up until the end of the season. The Jazz beat Denver in the playoffs- one of the so called contenders, even though the Jazz were missing 2 starters, and didn't even take the full 7 games to do it. And yet we still have people saying they would be a borderline playoff team this year, so it's okay to blow it up and save some money.

 

[carolinajazz]

...here's the basic answer to your question, Dawg! There is virtually NOBODY worth 80 million dollars to the Jazz...and here's why! The Jazz play a "system" structured offense....and they don't NEED an 80 million dollar player to fill any of the 5 spots on the team to make it work and work well! We can get by on way less expensive guys and make the playoffs, win any number of 7 game series' and even make it to the finals, as we did with Stockton and Malone, neither of which ever made max money or were the highest paid players in the NBA! Basketball is, has been and always will be a TEAM game...in which the sum parts is greater than the whole! Who had the highest payroll this past season? Was it the Lakers? Even so, they still needed a number of contributing lower priced players to win the whole thing! The Jazz need not be the highest or the lowest pay rolled team to win the whole thing. You need some superstars, but you need major contributors from the lesser paid players! Now, someone else can take up my cause and continue answering this question....perhaps in clearer terms!

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Its rather impossible to argue Booz is not worth 80 million when Rudy Gay and Joe Johnson just got max deals. If the Jazz didn't sign Milsap they would be doing everything in their power to keep Boozer. It would be nice to keep both, but no sane GM invests that much money into two players who strictly play only one and the same position.

The Jazz made this decision a year ago when they decided not to extend Boozer. Boozer wanted an extension to stay with the Jazz and the Jazz said no.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

...here's the basic answer to your question, Dawg! There is virtually NOBODY worth 80 million dollars to the Jazz...and here's why! The Jazz play a "system" structured offense....and they don't NEED an 80 million dollar player to fill any of the 5 spots on the team to make it work and work well! We can get by on way less expensive guys and make the playoffs, win any number of 7 game series' and even make it to the finals, as we did with Stockton and Malone, neither of which ever made max money or were the highest paid players in the NBA! Basketball is, has been and always will be a TEAM game...in which the sum parts is greater than the whole! Who had the highest payroll this past season? Was it the Lakers? Even so, they still needed a number of contributing lower priced players to win the whole thing! The Jazz need not be the highest or the lowest pay rolled team to win the whole thing. You need some superstars, but you need major contributors from the lesser paid players! Now, someone else can take up my cause and continue answering this question....perhaps in clearer terms!

Every team needs at least 2 players who can "take over" on offense, and at least 1 or 2 players who can change the game on defense. The rest of the pieces are interchangeable, which is why you see the Lakers and Spurs win multiple titles with a core of a few players and journeymen everywhere else. The Jazz are looking for one guy who can "take over" on offense to combine with D. Will. Boozer is close to this, but not the cigar, so the Jazz decided to "go in a different direction."

 

[Hopper]

...here's the basic answer to your question, Dawg! There is virtually NOBODY worth 80 million dollars to the Jazz...and here's why! The Jazz play a "system" structured offense....and they don't NEED an 80 million dollar player to fill any of the 5 spots on the team to make it work and work well! We can get by on way less expensive guys and make the playoffs, win any number of 7 game series' and even make it to the finals, as we did with Stockton and Malone, neither of which ever made max money or were the highest paid players in the NBA! Basketball is, has been and always will be a TEAM game...in which the sum parts is greater than the whole! Who had the highest payroll this past season? Was it the Lakers? Even so, they still needed a number of contributing lower priced players to win the whole thing! The Jazz need not be the highest or the lowest pay rolled team to win the whole thing. You need some superstars, but you need major contributors from the lesser paid players! Now, someone else can take up my cause and continue answering this question....perhaps in clearer terms!

I agree with this, pretty much 100%, CJ.

On the one hand, you must have talent to win. On the other, ya gotta remember that individual talent alone does not win championships (see Cleveland, or Chicago with Jordan trying to do everything himself for years). The Jazz beating Denver is just one more demonstration that smart, disciplined team play, even with less talent, can prevail over superior talent relying on "random basketball" for wins.

I know that many are of the opinion that, if there is one position where a "superstar" helps a team the most, it is the center position. Wilt Chamberlain was probably the greatest (relative to his peers) individual player of all time, but Russell and the Celtics won all the championships. Howard is a great individual player, but he seldom even gets to take a shot, because they really don't play "team" ball down there.

I think the Jazz are in a good position. If you're gunna emphasize team play, which I agree that you should, then the most important position for your team is your point guard, not any of your bigs. The Jazz are fortunate to have a highly talented point guard who is both willing and able to consistently play "team ball." Now they need good talent, but not necessarily any certified "superstars," at ALL other positions, not just at the PF spot, or the center position.

It remains to be seen how well LeBron, Wade, Bosh, et al, play together as a team. To the surprise of many, Allen, Garnett, and Pierce played very well as a team, and not just as individuals. Even so, Rivers and at least some of the other players (Garnett, I know), see Rondo as absolutely essential to their success. I'm not predicting it, but nor would I be surprised, if Miami ultimately falls short of a championship. Three ballhogs and only one ball is not conducive to team success at the highest level.

 

[Harcher]

There are a number of factors convoluting this question - (a good question and a good thread)
1. Boozer is 'replaceable' by Milsap to achieve about the same results and for less money (see BAT's post)
2. There are FEW players worth $80M. I think there is a listable number of $120 types and a LOT worth $40million or less
3. The replacement that Jazz want for $80 or greater has to help them against the Lakers (i.e a center)
4. It is AK's contract that stopped this signing (this one i don't believe, the Jazz would pay LeBron/Wade if that were option)

Check this list of players to see who's worth $80M (just to have a list in front of you.)
https://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=13925
I really didn't see many that were worth $80 to help the Jazz (Kaman? but he's getting old now too.) I tried to think of some like Pryzbilla, Gortat, but they are examples of someone that could help the Jazz but in no way am i paying $80M for them. I passed out when i saw tha Rudy Gay got $80M.

This is essence of the Jazz FO situation. The Jazz are not transformed EITHER direction in a Boozer decision: lottery bound or laker beater. Therefore it is not worth it right now and it appears no one is worth it. (As Salty has pointed out all the readers on this thread can't find anyone.) For this reason the Jazz will sit tight for a while until a situation arises that they can take another chance on. That's not exciting news for the hope of "summer trading season" but i think that is the situation.

Hmmm. it seems the make up of the nba rules might make it so there are no $80M players
1. You have to have 2 superstars to win (max players)
2 You have to sign 13 players
3. Ave NBA salary taking out MAX players is probably the MLE ($5-6) (11 players = 55-66 which is the cap)

So does this mean that there is just a market condition of only max players and then average players? As we see in our case, Millsap is a near-replacement for Boozer (but it's $7.5 vs $15ish)

(NFL running backs seem to be this way. A handful of real exceptions and a whole bunch of pretty darn good ones.)

 

[carolinajazz]

I agree with this, pretty much 100%, CJ.

On the one hand, you must have talent to win. On the other, ya gotta remember that individual talent alone does not win championships. I know that many are of the opinion that, if there is one position where a "superstar" helps a team the most, it is the center position. I think the Jazz are in a good position. If you're gunna emphasize team play, which I agree that you should, then the most important position for your team is your point guard, not any of your bigs. The Jazz are fortunate to have a highly talented point guard who is both willing and able to consistently play "team ball." Now they need good talent, but not necessarily any certified "superstars," at ALL other positions, not just at the PF spot, or the center position.

...I knew for sure you would agree with me and help me out on this....because great basketball minds think alike! I concur with you 100% that in today's NBA the key position seems to be POINT GUARD....and the Jazz have one of the very best! Why is that? For a couple of reasons. 1) The game has changed during the regular season to a much more "up tempo" style of play and without hand checking and players allowed to palm and travel more than before, having a quick, creative point guard leads to a ton of regular season victories and a good seed in the playoffs. 2) The 3 point shot. Many teams run an offense that emphasizes penetration and kick out to spot up shooters, most of them standing behind the 3 point line. The need to "pound the ball inside" seems only necessary when the playoffs start and the game slows down because coaches want there teams to "cherish" each possession more so than the regular season. Now the Jazz can play either style anytime they so desire. You still have to have talent (Stockton and Malone) and you still have to play good defense and rebound well. But you don't need to pay millions of dollars for players who can play defense and rebound well. They are, for the most part, a dime a dozen....or at least come cheaper than the offensive "whiz" who can get you on ESPN highlight films any given night! Actually, good defensive players are not a dime a dozen.....because NOBODY wants to exert that much effort on defensive anymore! I agree with you....the Heat better get some outside spot up shooters (see my thread on Korver!) or they could be in serious trouble even with the 3 hot shot hoppers!

 

[Hopper]

CJ, I 'm sure there would be people on both sides of the debate of this question: Who was more important to the Jazz, Stockton, or Malone?

While Malone was extremely important, I would say Stockton. What Malone brought could be more easily replaced (whether by just one player, or a combination of players) than could Stockton's value to the team.

Although I'm sure he was joking, there is some truth to Barkley's reply when he was asked to name the best player of all time:

"Gotta be John Stockton. Who else could turn an average forward like Karl Malone into "the Mailman?"

 

[Chad Feldheimer]

CJ, I 'm sure there would be people on both sides of the debate of this question: Who was more important to the Jazz, Stockton, or Malone?

While Malone was extremely important, I would say Stockton. What Malone brought could be more easily replaced (whether by just one player, or a combination of players) than could Stockton's value to the team.

Although I'm sure he was joking, there is some truth to Barkley's reply when he was asked to name the best player of all time:

"Gotta be John Stockton. Who else could turn an average forward like Karl Malone into "the Mailman?"

Cute comment but it wasn't entirely Stockton who turned Malone into the player he was. It was all the underage girls... er I mean his relentless hard work.

 

[Hopper]

Chicago Sports take on Boozer:

Top Ten Things to Know About Carlos Boozer

I thought we'd take some time to focus on what may be the biggest splash we make in the most overhyped and over analyzed free agency season in sports history....


10. Duke Curse: Danny Ferry is the only person in Duke history to win an NBA Championship

9. Bad Reputation: ... we can't ignore the fact that there have been whispers about Boozer half assing it or looking disinterested sometimes.

8. Olympic Experience: Boozer was fortunate enough to play for the US in both the 2004 and 2008 Summer Olympics. He took home a bronze the first time around in one of the more disappointing performances we've ever witnessed by our men's basektball teams

7. Burned Bridges: To try and please their buddying young star power forward, the Cavs supposedly came to an agreement that would allow Boozer to become a restricted free agent so they could sign him to a 6-year, $39 million deal. Once they made him a restricted free agent, Boozer bolted for the Jazz and the $70 million while the Cavs could do nothing but wave goodbye because they couldn't match the offer

6. Average Defense: Let's just hope Tom Thibodeau can live up to his reputation as a defensive guru and work some magic with Boozer.

5. Injury Factor: Throughout his eight year career, Boozer's been plagued with the dreaded injury bug. He only played 51 games in 2004, 33 in 2005 and 37 in 2008

4. Post Moves: Yup, you read that right. The Bulls finally have a guy that can play with his back to the basket and provide the kind of interior offense we've been missing for so long.

3. Pick & Roll: If there's one thing you need to master if you want to thrive in a Jerry Sloan offense is the pick and roll. Boozer did just that with the help of Deron Williams and you can be sure the Bulls will try to do the same thing with Derrick Rose.

2. Banging the Boards: Combining Boozer's career average of 10.2 RPG with the 11 Noah averaged last year will give us more second opportunities on the offensive end of the floor and limit those of the opposition

1. Help for Rose: Playing alongside Deron Williams, Boozer should have plenty to share with Rose to make him more of a complete point guard in this league

https://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/to...p-ten-things-to-know-about-carlos-boozer.html

I guess they don't really say if they think he's worth 80 million....