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Is Gordon Hayward overrated?

PG_AB said:
On this board he's vastly overrated, only fans who aren;t used to watching championship level play would fail to recognize that... He's got fancy advanced stats, but they don't translate during big spots, he's hit or miss. Nickname should be Gordon "Coinflip" Hayward

He's not as valuable as DeRozan is to the Raptors, who are 60 games over .500 in the past 3 seasons. The Raptors also had a winning record vs every team in their conference this season.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yFVmW0E2pM
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I don't believe Derozen is better than Hayward. The difference between the Raptors and Jazz over the past 3 years is they had an allstar point guard while the Jazz have had the worst PG play in the league. Not to mention Raptors play in the eastern conference which has, at times, been quite the sh*t show.
 
lol, it's funny watching all the worst posters using each other as validation.
 
Broncster said:
Easy answer, teams run more motion plays now and far less posting up plays. The players are also all faster and generally stay in motion throughout the game. Playing more minutes does not necessarily equate moving more. I can play infinite minutes and not move. Teams use less of the shot clock (wasnt always a shot clock either), games are higher scoring, players run faster, jump higher and travel up and down the court more times. I could provide data for you but if your struggling with fact that the amount of minutes played is different from distance traveled that seems pointless for me to type out.
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Not getting involved in the whole minutes played vs miles moved per game, or whatever, which is really just a measure of pace, I just wanted to clear something up in this discussion.

Games are actually not higher scoring now. Not by a long shot. And the current pace is much slower. The 80's has that title.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

Over the last 10 years the NBA has averaged 99.7 ppg, but in the top 10-game stretch in the 80's they averaged 109.4 ppg. Their pace was considerably higher as well. In fact this last season, 2015, was the fastest pace and highest scoring since 92-93 season at 102.7 ppg, well below the average from the mid-70's all through the 80's. I think it is too easy to think about the Jazz, who has really always been a slower-paced team, as opposed to, well, just about everyone else who relied a lot more on fast breaks. The showtime Lakers got that nickname from playing at such an extreme pace and using the fast break as their primary weapon with Magic's otherworldly court vision. I would guarantee those teams put WAY more miles on the court per game than teams are now.
 
One way to look at this is to look at Hayward's PER, since PER is designed to put the truly middle of the pack players firmly at 15.0. For our team last season Favors came in on top, at 23rd in the league, at 21.7, or 5th among Power Forwards, where they have him listed. Hayward came in at 8th among SF, at 18.37, which puts him at 58th in the league. I don't think that many here rate him much above where this falls, even for the flaws in the PER rating at least it is something we can use objectively. But that means that in some way there are 57 better players in the league right now. Are there 57 other players you would take over Hayward?


EDIT:

For example would you trade Hayward for Klay Thompson straight up right this second, assuming there were no differences in contracts. Just going on pure ability? Klay's PER was 18.67 vs Hayward at 18.37.

Or would you trade him for Wiggins, same scenario? Wigging PER last year was 16.61.

It is awful hard to rate a player to begin with. No matter what he has done in the past we have seen plenty of players come in the next year and way outperform and way underperform to their career stats.

I personally think we rate Hayward about right, at least from the conversations I have seen.
 
Broncster said:
Easy answer, teams run more motion plays now and far less posting up plays. The players are also all faster and generally stay in motion throughout the game. Playing more minutes does not necessarily equate moving more. I can play infinite minutes and not move. Teams use less of the shot clock (wasnt always a shot clock either), games are higher scoring, players run faster, jump higher and travel up and down the court more times. I could provide data for you but if your struggling with fact that the amount of minutes played is different from distance traveled that seems pointless for me to type out.
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OK, Ok, Ok......... You have awakened the demons, lets go.
You said that back then you could play infinite minutes and not move, therefor playing more minutes per game, right? Wrong! = If you don't move, the coach will remove you. (Genius.) This may be news to you, but believe it or not, even though it was the 60's - 90's, there has never been an era of professionally played NBA basketball, or for that matter any level of competition basketball where one could stand on the court, do nothing, and not be taken out of the game.
You mentioned that you could provide data, but wont due to my ignorance of the game. LOL, entertain me. You also mentioned that the shot clock wasn't always around. Your right. It was introduced during 1955, so back to my theory of traveling via airplane, and NBA games being 48 minutes per game still stand.
Lets go on to your claim (that you were unable to provide data for). "The games are higher scoring". Please again provide me with the data that you were unable to provide, because I promise you that my brain can handle it. Speaking of which, lets dive in more.
NBA overall scores
1957-1971 = Avg, NBA team score 113.98 PPG
1996-2012 = Avg, NBA team score 97.0 PPG.

I am wondering if you know anything about basketball at all.

You also claimed that players today jump higher and travel up and down the court more. Unfortunately I don't have the stats available to make you look stupid like I did in your most recent claims. What I can tell you is, tell players like Michael Jordan, Dominique Wilkins, Spud Webb, Dr. J, Fred Jones, Vince Carter, Clyde Drexler, Steve Francis, James White, Darrell Griffith, Jason Richardson, & Dee Brown that players of today can jump higher. Maybe they will exchange vertical's and discuss how big of a moron you are. Maybe they won't. I am putting my money on the latter. Being a betting man, I would go all in on the Vegas tables that you receive a monthly check that is due to you on the 1st, 3rd, or the 3rd Wednesday of the month. If you don't understand what that means, for Christ sake, read a book all ready, your way over due.
 
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Lakers_Slapper said:
OK, Ok, Ok......... You have awakened the demons, lets go.
You said that back then you could play infinite minutes and not move, therefor playing more minutes per game, right? Wrong! = If you don't move, the coach will remove you. (Genius.) This may be news to you, but believe it or not, even though it was the 60's - 90's, there has never been an era of professionally played NBA basketball, or for that matter any level of competition basketball where one could stand on the court, do nothing, and not be taken out of the game.
You mentioned that you could provide data, but wont due to my ignorance of the game. LOL, entertain me. You also mentioned that the shot clock wasn't always around. Your right. It was introduced during 1955, so back to my theory of traveling via airplane, and NBA games being 48 minutes per game still stand.
Lets go on to your claim (that you were unable to provide data for). "The games are higher scoring". Please again provide me with the data that you were unable to provide, because I promise you that my brain can handle it. Speaking of which, lets dive in more.
NBA overall scores
1957-1971 = Avg, NBA team score 113.98 PPG
1996-2012 = Avg, NBA team score 97.0 PPG.

I am wondering if you know anything about basketball at all.

You also claimed that players today jump higher and travel up and down the court more. Unfortunately I don't have the stats available to make you look stupid like I did in your most recent claims. What I can tell you is, tell players like Michael Jordan, Dominique Wilkins, Spud Webb, Dr. J, Fred Jones, Vince Carter, Clyde Drexler, Steve Francis, James White, Darrell Griffith, Jason Richardson, & Dee Brown that players of today can jump higher. Maybe they will exchange vertical's and discuss how big of a moron you are. Maybe they won't. I am putting my money on the latter. Being a betting man, I would go all in on the Vegas tables that you receive a monthly check that is due to you on the 1st, 3rd, or the 3rd Wednesday of the month. If you don't understand what that means, for Christ sake, read a book all ready, your way over due.
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So your standard insult is to ask people if they receive a cheque on the first and third ??? Your little act is old, tedious and boring. You're not even remotely clever or witty.
 
Cappy_Smurf said:
Wut
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Apparently I have confused you and it only took one sentence to do so. Allow me to go into further detail. In the 1950's (1950 - 1959), the 1960's (1960 - 1969), and 1970's (1970 - 1979). The NBA (National Basketball Association) played the same amount of games (each team played 82 games per team per season), that they play today. (teams today play the same amount of games per season per team.) 82. (this is number that is 82 more than the number zero (0). and 18 numbers shy of the number 100.
I sure hope that this clears up all of the confusion that I left behind with my original 18 word sentence. Good luck.
 
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