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I've never been so scared in my life

After we got home and spent some time together, my daughter was doing okay (relatively) and I had something I really needed to take care of at work. I asked her if she was okay and she told me to go back to work (she knows how busy I've been the last couple weeks). Work had always been very therapeutic for me. It allows me to clear my head and think through things. So, I've had a chance to think through these comments and my feelings. The conclusion I came to is the same it's been. I firmly believe that if guns (with the necessary training, etc.) were more available/accessible to faculty and such at schools, these ******** scenarios wouldn't play out to the extent they do. Imagine how many fewer lives could have been lost at Columbine or Sandy Hook if a handful of teachers/staff were carrying weapons? I'm pretty sure we can all agree that if someone with bad intentions wants a gun, they will find it. If there are more "good guys" with the ability/tools to protect us, it will help. I go back to the responsibility of the gun owner.

So you reaffirmed your established beliefs after some more time to think... but without any additional facts in this case?

Fortunately, most people don't have to face this issue head-on, but I wish those who did would really inquire into the specific issues of the case, and then let those head-on issues rework their opinions. At least slightly. Otherwise all society hears is this broad/general/abstract garble. In other words, the kind of stuff you seem to be regurgitating even though you have the opportunity (as awful at it is) to do something else.

Our society has an epistemological problem. We scan through information looking for how it confirms our ideology, rather than learning (i.e. unworking previous beliefs/ideologies).


Maybe I'm projecting too much into this. I will open up and say that it's precisely this issue that has me most worked up (politically speaking), so maybe I'm seeing my own frustration. I want to feel differently about your process, so let me ask you another question: while you were spending this extra time thinking at work, what were you thinking with? In other words, what bits of info/data/whatever felt like FACTS to you? What were the things that recemented your opinion?
 
Ya, I agree with all of this. I just wanted to point out that it is a larger societal problem, and not just school related. I believe you're right that the cultural factors that lead to this problem are most apparent in schools, for the reasons you listed.

You're spot on about people being lonely despite being surrounded by people. That is exactly the loss of community that I was referring to.

To make things worse, I don't think there are any comprehensive solutions in the current system. You can make things better thru gun control and what have you. But the source of the problem is technology; the well from which all "progress" gushes thru. Community is just the price we pay for the technological empowerment of the individual.

how do you define technology?

I'm resisting the same counterargument that you gave salt13: You can't blame it on technology and development since they have been ubiquitous since the industrial revolution...
 
So you reaffirmed your established beliefs after some more time to think... but without any additional facts in this case?

Fortunately, most people don't have to face this issue head-on, but I wish those who did would really inquire into the specific issues of the case, and then let those head-on issues rework their opinions. At least slightly. Otherwise all society hears is this broad/general/abstract garble. In other words, the kind of stuff you seem to be regurgitating even though you have the opportunity (as awful at it is) to do something else.

Our society has an epistemological problem. We scan through information looking for how it confirms our ideology, rather than learning (i.e. unworking previous beliefs/ideologies).


Maybe I'm projecting too much into this. I will open up and say that it's precisely this issue that has me most worked up (politically speaking), so maybe I'm seeing my own frustration. I want to feel differently about your process, so let me ask you another question: while you were spending this extra time thinking at work, what were you thinking with? In other words, what bits of info/data/whatever felt like FACTS to you? What were the things that recemented your opinion?
The facts that I did or didn't have are irrelevant, IMO. My daughter just experienced a shot being fired by a student at her school. I ecperienced the utter and complete terror of having been alerted that an active shooter was at my daughter's school. As it turns out, that report was slightly overblown, but for about ten minutes, I thought a kid or kids had free run at my daughter's school with a gun. After the initial and automatic worry about my daughter, my next thoughts immediately turned to "how long until someone else with a gun can stop this?" My mind keeps going back to the bad guys get guns to do bag things. If we can get more good guys to counteract that, we're better off. But I also feel that more safety issues need to be addressed. We (gun owners) need to be better at being safe with our guns.
The news agencies are reporting that this kids parents noticed something was different with his behavior this morning. They followed up on it. They noticed the two guns were missing and went to the school. They were two classrooms away when he fired the shot. I commend them for being that attentive and I'm extremely grateful they followed through with their concerns. I don't know what their gun safety procedures are at home. I singly feel a 15 year old kid should not have ready access to them. They should be in a safe and he should not know where the key is or what the combination is. That's what I follow at home. The kid obviously knew enough about the guns to take a shotgun and a 9mm with a box of ammo for each and how to load and shoot the shotgun. [MENTION=840]fishonjazz[/MENTION] has brought up some valid points and counterarguments to my thoughts. This whole situation has me thinking more about it.
 
The facts that I did or didn't have are irrelevant, IMO. My daughter just experienced a shot being fired by a student at her school. I ecperienced the utter and complete terror of having been alerted that an active shooter was at my daughter's school. As it turns out, that report was slightly overblown, but for about ten minutes, I thought a kid or kids had free run at my daughter's school with a gun. After the initial and automatic worry about my daughter, my next thoughts immediately turned to "how long until someone else with a gun can stop this?" My mind keeps going back to the bad guys get guns to do bag things. If we can get more good guys to counteract that, we're better off. But I also feel that more safety issues need to be addressed. We (gun owners) need to be better at being safe with our guns.
The news agencies are reporting that this kids parents noticed something was different with his behavior this morning. They followed up on it. They noticed the two guns were missing and went to the school. They were two classrooms away when he fired the shot. I commend them for being that attentive and I'm extremely grateful they followed through with their concerns. I don't know what their gun safety procedures are at home. I singly feel a 15 year old kid should not have ready access to them. They should be in a safe and he should not know where the key is or what the combination is. That's what I follow at home. The kid obviously knew enough about the guns to take a shotgun and a 9mm with a box of ammo for each and how to load and shoot the shotgun. [MENTION=840]fishonjazz[/MENTION] has brought up some valid points and counterarguments to my thoughts. This whole situation has me thinking more about it.

I think we're misunderstanding each other. I asked about what facts do you feel you had? as you thought this through. Based on the post I've quoted, it seems like you felt as if you had a few.

In my opinion (and this is jusssst my opinion), it seems like you don't have very many for someone with a direct opportunity to add to our collective thinking on this issue. You don't even know who this person is yet, his background with firearms, the way he gained access to the firearms, etc. It seems very hasty to draw conclusions without as many of these details as possible.

If I'm wrong for expecting more from someone in your position -- and for being disappointed that I'm hearing a repetition of a partisan take on this issue after so little fact-gathering -- please tell me how/why.


EDIT: I hope you got my PM as soon as I heard about this. I'd have been out-of-my-mind if I were in your shoes. I'd also still be feeling jolted/nuts about it. I'm sorry you and your family have had to go through this.
 
Forget about the shooters for a second

Let's talk about destructive behaviors as a whole. When we do it seems that they are commonplace. Now think of all the kids that feel the same way but are able to hold it together even if just barely. Why do so many kids feel so isolated, worthless, imprisoned, and hopeless? Is that how they are supposed to feel? You tell me, What's going on?
No, kids should not feel that way. Mental health issues are real and should be dealt with. Even if they somehow relate to our transition from hunter/gatherer society as you suggest, though, I do not see going back to those roots somehow as a reasonable alternative.

Self confidence, happiness, self worth, and all other positive evaluations (as well as all negative evaluations) exist only in the mind of the individual. We have ample proof that people can experience these positive emotions regardless of circumstance, regardless of economics, regardless of anything. The same is true for experiencing negative emotions. I could show you many examples of incredibly happy people who have nothing, and incredibly unhappy people who have everything. Getting onto the right side of this equation is an important and very personal journey. Some people make it very easy for themselves to accomplish this, and some people make it very difficult (or even impossible) for themselves. IMO people are much more likely to succeed if they take personal responsibility for their own happiness than if they accept the thinking that there is something outside of their control (systemic or otherwise) that needs to change in order for them to feel good about themselves.
 
I think we're misunderstanding each other. I asked about what facts do you feel you had? as you thought this through. Based on the post I've quoted, it seems like you felt as if you had a few.

In my opinion (and this is jusssst my opinion), it seems like you don't have very many for someone with a direct opportunity to add to our collective thinking on this issue. You don't even know who this person is yet, his background with firearms, the way he gained access to the firearms, etc. It seems very hasty to draw conclusions without as many of these details as possible.

If I'm wrong for expecting more from someone in your position -- and for being disappointed that I'm hearing a repetition of a partisan take on this issue after so little fact-gathering -- please tell me how/why.


EDIT: I hope you got my PM as soon as I heard about this. I'd have been out-of-my-mind if I were in your shoes. I'd also still be feeling jolted/nuts about it. I'm sorry you and your family have had to go through this.

I haven't received a PM. But no worries.

As for the other questions:
I did have a few of the facts that have since come out. Basically, the story on KSL last night/this morning is what I already knew.
Given the way things worked out, I'm not sure how many people would have had a major change of opinions. If it had been worse, maybe my thoughts and opinions would have changed. They still might as I learn more about what happened.
 
So I would have expected to hear about a school shooting on national news. I know it has been covered a little on national news but not much. I think it's a remarkable story about concerned parents of a troubled teen. Parents who were aware that their child was abnormally upset and then noticed that some guns were missing. Can you imagine being those parents, thinking that your child was going to be the next national villain, shooting up their school and killing other people's children? They were rushing to the school to save the life of their own child, the other children, teachers, and ultimately protecting their own self from the devastation that would follow if their child went through with it. I can only imagine that the father had no concern for his own safety as he subdued his son. I'm sure at some level he realized that if he was unsuccessful his life would be meaningless anyway and his son would most certainly have died in the process.

Again, this is one of the most unique school shooting stories I've ever heard and the national media seems uninterested. I guess you need a body count to sell the story and here there was none. But to me that is what makes this such and interesting and compelling story.

Does this go down as an "only in Utah" type situation, where a parent is aware enough to realize something is up and instead of just calling 9-11 or just crossing their fingers they go to the school and prevent a tragedy?
 
I disagree with the last paragraph. I was one of those kids. I doubt I would have survived school. One of the things that helped me was getting a day job and working with adults. Suddenly I had role models who were interested in cooperation and who appreciated what I produced. Ironically I went from not knowing what the inside of my school library looked like to spending time in book stores. While I had friends in school I found that after I left I liked them much more. Instead of having a girlfriend that was mostly for show(hated her)I started having relationships with people I wanted to actually spend time with. There wasn't a non-brick and mortar option available to me to continue my education. You took your GED and that was that.

I think that technology can provide options that weren't there before. I think it can provide opportunities to reestablish communities and provide new ones. Further I think that we have underutilized the opportunities for individualization in our education system that technology can provide. Our current system doesn't help kids to become individuals. It strips them of that in much the same way that it strips them of a sense of community. Most kids aren't served well by our current system and they leave school ill prepared for both college and the workplace. I think that a change in our education system could not only increase the psychological health of our kids but also lead to better educational outcomes.

As you well know, I'm a big fan of technology (and modernity). I am not ranting that technology makes our lives worse. However, I don't think I see it the same way you do.

The problem goes beyond K-12. Mass shootings are not only perpetrated by teenagers. The fact they are perpetrated almost exclusively by young males (14-30) speaks to their mental makeup and how that mental state reacts to the modern environment they live in. The same-age grouping in school is incidental and acausal. Growing up in Jordan, where people have as easy an access to firearms as they do here, I do not recall a single school shooting, or any of the nihilistic mass shootings we hear about every other month in the US. That is because a tight-nit community exists outside of school, despite the fact that the schooling system is identical.

And it is not just mass shootings. It's everything else that stems from the separation from the tight communities that humans evolved to exist in. The increasing suicide rates, the astounding rates of anti-depressant use, and so forth.

Unfortunately, I don't think technology can create a real sense of community for the reasons you mentioned. It DOES create opportunity. Technology is power. And community can only be forged from the steel of mutual suffering. A community of choice cannot truly exist, because community brings with it its own set of problems. And as long as you can go "**** you people, I'm out of here", real community cannot exist.

Technology has created this community for me. It is really the only community I'm part of. I know some of the people of this forum better than I do anyone else in my life beside my family and a couple of my closest friends. And yet, I can just log off one day and never come back. My life would go on the same, and I can join other similarly loose communities.

But that is not the same as being in a real community. Think of the people of East Germany before the collapse of the USSR. They lived in ugly apartment blocks in a state of relative economic poverty. But due to the limits of their resources, extended families lived together, kids would be playing outside together, mixing up with adults, and were cared for by the "tribe" at large for most of the day. That's community. Once the USSR collapsed and East Germany modernized, that construct of community disappeared. They gained in material terms, which is important. But they also lost in human terms.

So I don't think technology can create meaningful community. Only scarcity can. At least, not the type of community that many humans naturally crave. The one that leads to group-think and makes an enemy of otherness and judges your every action through a thousand eyes. But that's the type of community that gives many people a sense of belonging.

When Steve Bannon talks about foreigners destroying "the civic society", he's mourning the loss of community. His attribution is wrong. The same would be the case even if he lived in his white-only utopia, because the culprit is modernity, not skin color or "culture". But he is talking about something real nonetheless.
 
how do you define technology?

I'm resisting the same counterargument that you gave salt13: You can't blame it on technology and development since they have been ubiquitous since the industrial revolution...

Good question. I think any technology would have that effect. A homo erectus with a stone tool can more easily separate from his tribe than one without. A homo sapien with access to pocket computers and a global communication network can doubly so.

It is a matter of degree. The more capable our technology, the more independent the individual can be from others. Like I said in my response to alt13; community is only formed once it's forced on you. The modern world is constructed around the idea of individual empowerment. It is the anti-thesis of community forming.
 
I haven't received a PM. But no worries.

As for the other questions:
I did have a few of the facts that have since come out. Basically, the story on KSL last night/this morning is what I already knew.
Given the way things worked out, I'm not sure how many people would have had a major change of opinions. If it had been worse, maybe my thoughts and opinions would have changed. They still might as I learn more about what happened.

(check your history of pos reps. I left my message there, fwiw)
 
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