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Jazz trade Devin Harris to Atlanta for Marvin Williams (merged)

NUMBERICA said:
I'm not going to look it up right now (on my phone), but the Hawks have to be one of the worst assisting teams in the league. Surely, that has to be taken into account for Marv's putrid assist numbers.
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.....I would have thought the same thing. But even though they were 8th in team assists.....here's how they get most of them: the point guard, who really wants to be a shooting guard, tries to create a shot for himself, jumps up into the air, has no shot, so then passes the ball to a fortunate teammate who just happens to be open, and hits the shot. It counts as an assist, but is really a pathetic play!
 
My memory of Atlanta was not the reputation they have for Iso players. I'm not sure what they run exactly, but their bread and butter was posting Johnson. Johnson is a fabulous passer out of the post, and they would cut just as fabulously from the high block. Even when either Smith or Horford got the pass, they are also great passers. So it's not hard to see how they were actually a great assist team.
 
This may be wishful thinking, but Im getting the feeling Marvin could be like Harpring when he first came to utah. Yes he wasnt amazing but he played solid D and had a good midrange jumper. Now Marvin can shoot better from outside and is more athletic so those are pluses. I dont know if he has the "piss other players off" factor that Harp was so good at.

If Marvin can hit the curl J then it would free White boy up to shoot the 3. Think Brewer who can shoot. We may also see him as a backup sf for millsap. Interesting things to watch in jazz land right now.
 
billyshelby said:
My memory of Atlanta was not the reputation they have for Iso players. I'm not sure what they run exactly, but their bread and butter was posting Johnson. Johnson is a fabulous passer out of the post, and they would cut just as fabulously from the high block. Even when either Smith or Horford got the pass, they are also great passers. So it's not hard to see how they were actually a great assist team.
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These numbers don't suggest that Williams was much of a beneficiary of that system (since setting up a post, making a cut, and hitting a shot takes a certain amount of time).

https://www.82games.com/1112/11ATL10.HTM

Change his shot selection and usage rate and you could easily be looking at 13 and 5 with solid defense.
 
NAOS said:
These numbers don't suggest that Williams was much of a beneficiary of that system (since setting up a post, making a cut, and hitting a shot takes a certain amount of time).

https://www.82games.com/1112/11ATL10.HTM

Change his shot selection and usage rate and you could easily be looking at 13 and 5 with solid defense.
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This is what is crazy about thinking Marvin Williams is going to improve: it's not the years, it's the minutes. The guy has averaged 30 minutes for the entire 7 years he's been in the league. And his numbers are flat. I don't care how misused he was, he's not going to change greatly. And it would be shocking, at least from a statistical standpoint, if he didn't regress as a 3 point shooter while improving his overall FG% from last year's stats.
 
billyshelby said:
This is what is crazy about thinking Marvin Williams is going to improve: it's not the years, it's the minutes. The guy has averaged 30 minutes for the entire 7 years he's been in the league. And his numbers are flat. I don't care how misused he was, he's not going to change greatly. And it would be shocking, at least from a statistical standpoint, if he didn't regress as a 3 point shooter while improving his overall FG% from last year's stats.
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I think your argument has always been that '13 cap space right? I think Locke said this yesterday - we'll still have about $23m to spend next year regardless.

So unless KOC is planning to sign x2 max players - I would have thought $23m would be plenty?

(It's hard enough imagining x1 max free agent signing with us let alone x2)
 
Hotttnickkk said:
I think your argument has always been that '13 cap space right? I think Locke said this yesterday - we'll still have about $23m to spend next year regardless.

So unless KOC is planning to sign x2 max players - I would have thought $23m would be plenty?

(It's hard enough imagining x1 max free agent signing with us let alone x2)
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Cap space is so much more than being able to sign high dollar players. You're missing most of the story.
 
billyshelby said:
Cap space is so much more than being able to sign high dollar players. You're missing most of the story.
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It then comes down to - does KOC see Marvin as part of our mid/long term plan in making this trade?

And looking at this you'd think that the answer to that is "Yes".
 
Hotttnickkk said:
It then comes down to - does KOC see Marvin as part of our mid/long term plan in making this trade?

And looking at this you'd think that the answer to that is "Yes".
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A fair point, but an absurd gamble. KOC would be betting that Williams will be so valuable after 2 years that having his Bird Rights would be worth sacrificing the 7.5 next year to give us leverage in resigning him. The chances of Williams being more than an MLE player are minimal at best, so accepting his 7.5 in year 2 falls into the category of "Hey, we've still got 32 million so what's the worry?" I'm not in that camp.
 
billyshelby said:
A fair point, but an absurd gamble. KOC would be betting that Williams will be so valuable after 2 years that having his Bird Rights would be worth sacrificing the 7.5 next year to give us leverage in resigning him. The chances of Williams being more than an MLE player are minimal at best, so accepting his 7.5 in year 2 falls into the category of "Hey, we've still got 32 million so what's the worry?" I'm not in that camp.
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OK fair point.

Another angle to consider as well is this. So far we've looked at this as a Harris / Marvin straight swap, with us having to potentially pay for Marvin for 1 more year ($7.5m in year 2). And that makes it a bad trade - assuming Harris & Marvin have the same value.

But may be what KOC sees is that Marvin is worth much more to Jazz than Harris (basketball wise, fit, needs, etc). Which means we can't look at that extra year in isolation. We have to also consider the fact that Marvin is going to be so valuable to us as a player in 2012 - which helps to justify any shortcomings.

Also I think KOC is looking to see improvements from Marvin (with our coaching, our system, etc) that he'll be worth $7.5m in '13. If that's his estimation, then I don't think we have enough info to argue with that.
 
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