Jazz vs Lakers - Why the Jazz need to lose.

[Harambe]

Your whole argument is that the Jazz should be happy with finishing in the 4-6 spot every year and getting bounced from the first round of the playoffs. Do you work for the Jazz?

Sure, Utah's chances of getting that guy who will win titles with a top 3 pick is slim. You said 10%. What is Utah's chances with the 9th pick? Less than 1%? Hayward is leading this team anytime soon. Neither is Favors, Kanter, Howard, Jefferson, Millsap, etc. We don't have that guy. We won't get that guy through free agency (unless somehow Deron comes back). A top 3 pick is the only realistic way the Jazz have a shot at a title.

You can be happy with NBA mediocrity. I want titles.

No, my friend, it's not my point. My point is that there is little chance the route you pose will do anything for us. Lets go back to Franklins post for a second and look at the guys that did help build championships:

Michael Jordan, #3 pick, 7 championships. Hawkeem Olajuwon was the #1 that year. San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1 pick - These three won championships where they were drafted.

1999-00 Los Angeles Lakers Shaq #1 pick
2000-01 Los Angeles Lakers Shaq #1 pick
2001-02 Los Angeles Lakers Shaq #1 pick - Shaq was drafted by the Orlando Magic and brought them nothing.

2002-03 San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1 pick - See above

2003-04 Detroit Pistons Billups #3(Drafted by Celtics), Wallace #4(Went undrafted)

2004-05 San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1 pick - See Above

2005-06 Miami Heat Shaq #1 pick(Orlando), Wade doesn't count, as he was not top 3.

2006-07 San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1 pick - See Above

2007-08 Boston Celtics Exception, but two #5 picks (Allen, Garnett[both drafted by t-wolves]), and Pierce was 10th(Yes, drafted by celtics, but 10th, not 3rd) .
2008-09 Los Angeles Lakers Pau Gasol #3 pick - Drafted by Hawks
2009-10 Los Angeles Lakers Pau Gasol #3 pick - Drafted by Hawks
2010-11 Dallas Mavericks Tyson Chandler #2 pick(Clipps), Jason Kidd(My the Mavs, so I'll allow it, but was in Phx, and NJ) #2 pick

Go ahead and throw Kobe in there too. He wasn't drafted by the Lakers either.

As you can see, drafting a top pick, AND someone that's going to lead a team to a title hasn't been true since MJ and Olajuwon(with the exception of Tim Duncan, and Jason Kidd). Trades and off season signings are to blame for the bulk of these titles.

 

[green]

My point gives us a chance for that. Your point? You are too scared to shoot for the stars. That's good for the LA's and NY's.

 

[northeast]

curious, where were Dirk, Wade, and Kobe picked? I notice they are not on the lists, so I assume that the were not top 3.

The history shows as that teams that tank a year and get a top 3 pick they can win a title , and it's hard to get one without a top 3, but not impossible.
Also, you have a better chance of getting a superstar with a lower pick if it is not a big guy, and we've got 2 good big guys.
So the Jazz might find a great wing or point with a lower pick, that is easier to do.


so green and franklin make sense, but it is a moot point.
this was the year to do it, but it's too late.

 

[Thee Jazz Fan]

Data pluck lolzz.

Let's go by championships:

Michael Jordan, #3 pick, 7 championships. Hawkeem Olajuwon was the #1 that year. That top 3 draft class won every championship from 1990 to 1998.
1998-99 San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1 pick
1999-00 Los Angeles Lakers Shaq #1 pick
2000-01 Los Angeles Lakers Shaq #1 pick
2001-02 Los Angeles Lakers Shaq #1 pick
2002-03 San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1 pick
2003-04 Detroit Pistons Billups #3, Wallace #4,
2004-05 San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1 pick
2005-06 Miami Heat Shaq #1 pick, Wade should have gone 4th.
2006-07 San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1 pick
2007-08 Boston Celtics Exception, but two #5 picks (Allen, Garnett), and Pierce was 10th.
2008-09 Los Angeles Lakers Pau Gasol #3 pick
2009-10 Los Angeles Lakers Pau Gasol #3 pick
2010-11 Dallas Mavericks Tyson Chandler #2 pick, Jason Kidd #2 pick


There is a one year exception over the last 21.

A good amount of those guys were ether signed as free agents or traded for look at the Pistons Billups and Wallace weren't drafted by Det. Pistons were a good team, but not a contender, they traded for Wallace, and he put them over the top. Bill ups was not drafted by the Pistons.

Let's look at the heat, a good team with Wade, but not contenders, they trade for Shaq, he puts them over the top.

The Celtics are a little different before the trade they were bad, they trade for Ray and Garnett, they are put over the top. If the Celtics keep their pick top 5 or six I believe, they are still looking for that tittle.

Dallas was a good team like the Jazz of the 90's they sign Chandler and win a tittle (as weird as that sounds) they just needed that one small defensive piece to put them over the top.

The lakers were horrible they signed Shaq, they become relevant. Then the Lakers do a draft day trade for Kobe, if the Lakers don't trade for Kobe, would they have been good enough to win a tittle who knows, but those two moves are the reason they won. The lakers didn't draft ether player.

The Lakers again... Call it the shaqless era. When Shaq left to win the heat a tittle the Kobe Lakers were a one and done playoff team, they get Gasol for almost free. Gasol puts the lakers over the top.

That leaves us with the Spurs... Yes I know what the trolls will say they drafted Duncan, and that's what put them over the top because they had the top pick, but let's not forget the Spurs were a perennial playoff team. The year before the Duncan draft they had freak injuries to There core players including David Robinson who missed the whole year with injury. There best player was a way over the hill "human highlight film" remember him? The Spus didn't even have the worst record, got lucky and won the lottery. Most teams that pick first have bad bad teams. The Spurs already had a super star in Robinson that's how that pick won them a tittle. The spurs are the luckiest team ever, and lightning usually doesn't strike twice in the same spot, if you know what I mean. Yes I know what the trolls will say next, but but they won championships after Robinson left. Don't forget the Jazz let the spurs draft Parker 29th I think it was, and drafted Ginobili with one of the last draft picks in the second round, again as I said before there isn't a luckier team in the history of pro sports.

One last thought....

How did Cleavland do drafting James #1, how about the Clippers do drafting high in the lottery all those years. How many playoffs did they play in, funny thing is this year they sign Butler, sign Billups and trade for Paul, for the first time ever many are dubbing them contenders. The Clippers realized that their #1 pick wasn't going to win them anything alone.

The Jazz have the built a good core and will continue to do so with the Warriors pick, be it this year or the next. The jazz in my opinion need to just ad small pieces the Jazz do have assets, Al, the Memo trade exception Harris, GS pick, let's use these assets to bring in some players to play roles on this team around the core we have now. We could trade Harris for expiring contracts to free up money for Howard, we Can trade Al for what ever we need. His value is going up right now. Most importantly let's develop Favors, Hayward, Burks, and Kanter, get rid of Cj. We need to develop this young core into winners, and put other players around them to support them build winning team atmosphere. That will make them want to resign. And their for build a dynasty. Yes I said it a dynasty. You don't do that by simply making the lotto here and there.

 

[Thee Jazz Fan]

My point gives us a chance for that. Your point? You are too scared to shoot for the stars. That's good for the LA's and NY's.

When was the last time the LA had a top five pick they have ether traded or signed great free agents the Knicks traded for Antheny and signed Amare as a free agent. Name one top pick that is on their team they drafted.

 

[Harambe]

My point gives us a chance for that. Your point? You are too scared to shoot for the stars. That's good for the LA's and NY's.

Now look dude.. I shot your idea to s**t because it was a bad idea, not because I don't like you. Don't make this personal and call me a "sissy fraidy ninny cat", because I promise I will not be following you to the monkey bars to prove anything.

But if you want a counter proposal, I'll give you two.

First, make our market bigger. Obviously we can't exactly force people to move to Utah, and we can't force people to become basketball fans. But we can advertize in areas around that don't have a team anywhere near. We can hold exhibition games in, say, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming. Expand out Jr Jazz basketball to these states too. After we get some excitement going, we COULD get a hold of the local affiliate in those areas and broadcast our games. This is a huge, expensive, long project...but even if it took off a little bit we'd be much better off in the long run.

The other option, lets gamble even more thank tanking a season. Lets continue on, but then just throw luxury tax to the dogs. Focus on, no matter what, forgetting monetary restraints, getting to the Finals. That's where the money is anyway... Your team's share of the NBA on ABC for those final 7 games. Get a front office and coaching staff together that the LHM group believes in 140%(which I honestly don't believe they do right now) and give them garbage bags full of cash to get an EXTREMELY solid team this year right around the draft, and have them work together once or twice a week all summer.

So there's two ideas that are both better than "Welp... lets just continue to tank seasons until we get 'that guy'". And yet probably had just as much thought put into them.

 

[green]

When was the last time the LA had a top five pick they have ether traded or signed great free agents the Knicks traded for Antheny and signed Amare as a free agent. Name one top pick that is on their team they drafted.

So, you don't shoot for the stars, what happens? We get a Deron, can't win a title and he leaves after 6 years, we start all over again with Favors.

 

[green]

Now look dude.. I shot your idea to s**t because it was a bad idea, not because I don't like you. Don't make this personal and call me a "sissy fraidy ninny cat", because I promise I will not be following you to the monkey bars to prove anything.

But if you want a counter proposal, I'll give you two.

First, make our market bigger. Obviously we can't exactly force people to move to Utah, and we can't force people to become basketball fans. But we can advertize in areas around that don't have a team anywhere near. We can hold exhibition games in, say, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming. Expand out Jr Jazz basketball to these states too. After we get some excitement going, we COULD get a hold of the local affiliate in those areas and broadcast our games. This is a huge, expensive, long project...but even if it took off a little bit we'd be much better off in the long run.

The other option, lets gamble even more thank tanking a season. Lets continue on, but then just throw luxury tax to the dogs. Focus on, no matter what, forgetting monetary restraints, getting to the Finals. That's where the money is anyway... Your team's share of the NBA on ABC for those final 7 games. Get a front office and coaching staff together that the LHM group believes in 140%(which I honestly don't believe they do right now) and give them garbage bags full of cash to get an EXTREMELY solid team this year right around the draft, and have them work together once or twice a week all summer.

So there's two ideas that are both better than "Welp... lets just continue to tank seasons until we get 'that guy'". And yet probably had just as much thought put into them.

Those actually aren't bad ideas at all. They just take too long. This isn't about tanking seasons until we get "that" guy. This is about playing young guys and not being worried about losing ONE season. The Jazz are in a position they have NEVER been in. We have Hayward (9th pick), Burks (12th pick), Favors (3rd pick) and Kanter (3rd pick). We aren't a title contending team, this is a shortened season, the deepest draft since whenever you feel the last deepest draft was and we have two potential lottery picks. Our starting five in 2-3 years could be all top 10 picks. We would have a LA, Detriot Pistons, Boston team. How could you not want that? Why is everyone so opposed to being even better than OKC?

I don't get it. Every so often in life, you are presented with unique opportunities, that depending on your choices, that can completely change your future. We are back in the early 80's, you have a chance to buy Apple stock or put your money in a money market. Neither is wrong choice, one will give you good returns (4-6 place and at best a second round exit. Every 10-15 years you get a WCF appearance) or one will make you the richest guy on the block. Take your pick.

 

[Thee Jazz Fan]

So, you don't shoot for the stars, what happens? We get a Deron, can't win a title and he leaves after 6 years, we start all over again with Favors.

Guns don't have that kind of range. My point is has a team ever tanked from the beginning to the end of a season when they had a good team, like we do. Yes, we have a good team now.

I can see Favors, Hayward, and burks, and Kanter as a gig 4. I read a tweet from Locke saying Kanters rebounding at a higher rate then Love per 48 minutes. Oh and Millsap makes big 5. This team needs to win now.

 

[Harambe]

Those actually aren't bad ideas at all. They just take too long. This isn't about tanking seasons until we get "that" guy. This is about playing young guys and not being worried about losing ONE season. The Jazz are in a position they have NEVER been in. We have Hayward (9th pick), Burks (12th pick), Favors (3rd pick) and Kanter (3rd pick). We aren't a title contending team, this is a shortened season, the deepest draft since whenever you feel the last deepest draft was and we have two potential lottery picks. Our starting five in 2-3 years could be all top 10 picks. We would have a LA, Detriot Pistons, Boston team. How could you not want that? Why is everyone so opposed to being even better than OKC?

I don't get it. Every so often in life, you are presented with unique opportunities, that depending on your choices, that can completely change your future. We are back in the early 80's, you have a chance to buy Apple stock or put your money in a money market. Neither is wrong choice, one will give you good returns (4-6 place and at best a second round exit. Every 10-15 years you get a WCF appearance) or one will make you the richest guy on the block. Take your pick.

Here's your EXACT WORDS:

So, I bought into the hype. I was excited to watch last night's game. I was hoping for a Jazz win, to show we belonged. All that happened was proof that we need this team to lose this year. We do not have "That" guy. We do not have single player that you can give the ball to at the end of a game, clear out and know you will get points. Jefferson isn't that guy. Millsap is great, but too small to be that guy. Hayward is far from being that guy. The closest thing we have is Howard.

If we want this Jazz team to be different than the Jazz teams of the last 20+ years, we need a top 3 pick. If you are happy with 50 win seasons, and losing in the first or second round, then keep cheering for this team. BUT, take a long term look here.

Corbin is a good coach. What he has done from the first three games to last night is amazing. We have a great supporting cast for "that" guy. Big, big men. People that can come off the bench and score, rebound, we are playing good defense, etc. All this team is missing is "that" guy. So, join me Jazzfanz, in hoping for more games like last night, going toe to toe with big time teams, but losing, so we can get a top 3 pick and bring in the man who will bring the hardware to Salt Lake City.

Where in that do you site playing the rookies/youngins? I really don't see where it's at. All I see is "Blah blah blah, we don't have that guy, blah blah blah, lets continue to lose our games". There isn't anything pertaining to development at all, just hope that we become guy waiting for his big break.

 

[NUMBERICA]

If you believe in this rebuild, you have to believe that this team will be like the 2004 Pistons, not the 90's Bulls, Kobe Lakers, Showtime Lakers, Duncan Spurs, or Bird Celtics.

I believe that if you play basketball the right way and have above average players at every position, you can win it all.

I also believe that brand of basketball is much, much more entertaining to watch.

 

[franklin]

A good amount of those guys were ether signed as free agents or traded for look at the Pistons Billups and Wallace weren't drafted by Det. Pistons were a good team, but not a contender, they traded for Wallace, and he put them over the top. Bill ups was not drafted by the Pistons.

Let's look at the heat, a good team with Wade, but not contenders, they trade for Shaq, he puts them over the top.

I'm not reading the rest because this entire thread is ridiculous. El Roach tried using an argument that getting a top three pick fails more often than not. I showed that it's nearly impossible to win a title without a top 3 pick. Both are spurious and that's the point.

Every one of us knows you have to have an MVP caliber player and a kick *** surrounding cast to win a championship. If you think we have that then you probably agree with Roach. If you don't then you probably agree with green, cause the chances of the Jazz luring the next Shaq to Salt Lake Beach like we're Miami is slim to none.