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Jesus drank wine, can it really be that bad?

I believe there is some disagreement as to what "wine" was in the Bible. Some people see wine as the fermented alcohol containing wine we see today. Others see wine as unfermented or fresh wine, which could be what we call grape juice or something close to it. There has been research on the definition of wine. Today it is seen as the fermented grape juice. As early as 40 years ago definitions of wine included fermented and unfermented grape juice as wine.

The Latin vinum as used in biblical texts also contains boiled wine and sweet wine as definitions, and both types are unfermented.

The Greek word oinos while believed by many to mean only fermented grape juice, is referred to by Aristotle... "though called wine, it has not the effect of wine, for it does taste like wine and does not intoxicate like ordinary wine". Paipas, a Christian Bishop of Hierapolis who lived close to the apostolic age said "vines will grow each with... ten thousand clusters on each twig, and ten thousand grapes in each cluster, and each grape when crushed will yield 25 jars of wine [oinos]." While he was talking about his thoughts on the millennium it is telling that the grapes only need crushed to get the wine.
I have more on the Hebrew Yayin as well as scriptural passages that could be explained if desired.

My second point has to do with the LDS Word of Wisdom.
Doctrine and Covenants 89:3
3 Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.

This is given for everyone, but with the weakest of all saints in mind.

This last point is in regards to Silencer's post.

Doctrine and Covenants 58:26
26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is acompelled in all things, the same is a bslothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

Basically use your brains and judgement. Don't wait for a command to come down from the heavens before you stop doing something that is bad or bad for you. Don't wait for a prophet to tell you to do something good before you do it. Your brain is there for a reason, use it.
 
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If Jesus got a buzz from wine, he would start breakdancing on top of water. Wine was a cultural norm at that time I guess.
 
Alcohol can be dangerous if used without caution. However, we should have the control ourselves to decide what we want, and take responsibility for our actions.
Living in Europe it's ok to drink(beer and wine), and be in bars at the age of 16. I never get over going to the swimming pool, and seeing HS kids drinking beer at the cafe, not being ID'd, and not causing any problems.
Go figure!

Seems like modern science pretty much condemns drinking before early 20's at the least. I don't think we should be promoting alcoholism in children as a society.
 
Being raised LDS I was often humored/puzzled at some of my families responses to honest questions I had.

I remember asking "If wine is so bad why did Jesus drink it"?
To which they always replied either "The wine was much less powerful back then" or "Everyone drank wine, it like water".

Does it really matter how much the alochol content is? Are you telling me Jesus didn't get a little buzzed?
And is being buzzed wrong? If drinking alcohol is so bad now, why was it different then? Why would Christ do
something with even this slightest apperance of evil?

Seems to be a little be of a cop out to say "everyone was doing it". Are you telling me Jesus succumb to peer pressure?

Did anyone else ever have a similar conversation with their family? What did they say?

I read the first page of this thread, don't have time to read the rest but I thought I'd respond. Please read, you might enjoy!

I've heard and given the mormon bs answers of "not as strong alcohol" and "wine was more pure than water." There might be some truth to them, but they are ridiculous and miss the main point. The truth is, Jesus drank alcohol, he probably got buzzed. I'm definitely okay with that. We believe when Jesus Christ returns we will drink wine with him and I'm pretty sure there will be alcohol in it.

The Word of Wisdom was first given as advice, it wasn't until the 1920's or 30's that it became a requirement to obey it to enter the temple. Unfortunately Mormon's developed a superiority complex for being teetotalers. I 100% accept the revelation and I 100% believe there are blessings I get for following it, but I refuse to believe someone who smokes or drinks alcohol is a sinner (if they abuse drugs, then its probably a sin.)

My singles ward bishop was telling a story about how a few years ago they tore down one of the old stake centers in SLC. When they ripped out the stage they found a bunch of old, broken whiskey bottles underneath it. Turns out that after ward activities the Elder's quorum used to get drunk and would entertain themselves by "bowling" the whiskey bottle under the stage and hearing them crash.

Mormons used to drink alcohol. Joseph Smith drank alcohol and it wouldn't shake my testimony if he drank it after he received the word of wisdom (because when he received the revelation, it was not a commandment, it was advice. I believe it was Heber J Grant or someone else that made it a commandment.)

The modern day prophet says we shouldn't drink alcohol. I believe he gets revelation from God. Just because he tells me that its not okay to drink alcohol right now, doesn't mean I should judge people from different time periods to that same standard. (I'm not sure I'm driving my point home... what I'm trying to say is that if for some crazy reason the prophet said "Don't eat apples during August 2012" that doesn't mean all of a sudden it was a sin to eat an apple in Jesus's day. People do similar things with coffee and caffeine. They read way too much into what the prophet says. We are told not to drink coffee and tea and be wise it everything else we put into our bodies... some people get all passionate about not drinking any Coca-cola... not even caffeine free! Well... if thats what they decide for their life, good for them! But if they start holding other people to that standard, then they are idiots :) )


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Anyway, I hope that makes sense, is straightfoward and not offensive. Some LDS people are unreasonable and some grasp onto easy answers way too much.
 
Because alcohol is more harmful?

I'm not sure what this question is really asking, but my original thought that dealt with cocaine and alcohol was meant to say that cocaine is a more addictive substance.

And when I refer to heroin, it's meant to suggest "shooting up", which is much more addictive than taking a single percocet. In one of my college courses we learned about heroin and the statistic that jumped out to me was that the rate of people who shoot up heroin again after trying it for the first time is 100%.
 
I like JFFR's comments. I also think that the we are given commandments like this to show that our spirit is stronger than our body. We're all carnal in nature. We all need to eat. We all feel the need to procreate. And I think the majority of mankind would probably appreciate the feeling of being a little buzzed every once in a while. By making it a life goal to abstain from these things (except of course the procreating thingy while legally married) we show that our spirit has overcome our carnal desires.
 
I believe there is some disagreement as to what "wine" was in the Bible. Some people see wine as the fermented alcohol containing wine we see today. Others see wine as unfermented or fresh wine, which could be what we call grape juice or something close to it. There has been research on the definition of wine. Today it is seen as the fermented grape juice. As early as 40 years ago definitions of wine included fermented and unfermented grape juice as wine.

The Latin vinum as used in biblical texts also contains boiled wine and sweet wine as definitions, and both types are unfermented.

The Greek word oinos while believed by many to mean only fermented grape juice, is referred to by Aristotle... "though called wine, it has not the effect of wine, for it does taste like wine and does not intoxicate like ordinary wine". Paipas, a Christian Bishop of Hierapolis who lived close to the apostolic age said "vines will grow each with... ten thousand clusters on each twig, and ten thousand grapes in each cluster, and each grape when crushed will yield 25 jars of wine [oinos]." While he was talking about his thoughts on the millennium it is telling that the grapes only need crushed to get the wine.
I have more on the Hebrew Yayin as well as scriptural passages that could be explained if desired.

My second point has to do with the LDS Word of Wisdom.
Doctrine and Covenants 89:3
3 Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.

This is given for everyone, but with the weakest of all saints in mind.

This last point is in regards to Silencer's post.

Doctrine and Covenants 58:26
26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is acompelled in all things, the same is a bslothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

Basically use your brains and judgement. Don't wait for a command to come down from the heavens before you stop doing something that is bad or bad for you. Don't wait for a prophet to tell you to do something good before you do it. Your brain is there for a reason, use it.

Decaffeinated coffee is also called coffee, but when people talk about drinking coffee they're talking about the stuff with caffeine in it. Wine existed because it had alcohol in it and it is slightly acidic which prevents all known pathogens from living in it. It has saved millions of lives because of that fact. When someone is talking about drinking wine I would assume that unless they specified they were talking about the alcoholic beverage. Non-Fermented wine would have been highly susceptible to bacterial infection, not to mention wild yeast which lived on the skins of the grapes themselves. Store grape juice for any amount of time back then and you've got an alcoholic beverage on your hands soon enough.
 
The Word of Wisdom was first given as advice, it wasn't until the 1920's or 30's that it became a requirement to obey it to enter the temple. Unfortunately Mormon's developed a superiority complex for being teetotalers. I 100% accept the revelation and I 100% believe there are blessings I get for following it, but I refuse to believe someone who smokes or drinks alcohol is a sinner (if they abuse drugs, then its probably a sin.)

Interesting. Is it just a legal thing? Both tobacco and booze are drugs.
 
Interesting. Is it just a legal thing? Both tobacco and booze are drugs.

For me personally I cannot see God denying a good man/woman who lived all of Gods' laws entrance into heaven becasue they smoked.
 
Well, one believes that God put plant life on earth in the first place then I don't know why he'd care about any drug, as the vast majority are just plant derivatives.
 
For me personally I cannot see God denying a good man/woman who lived all of Gods' laws entrance into heaven becasue they smoked.

Margo's about to get religious here. Here is my opinion on "heaven": I believe in a God who is perfectly just, while at the same time being perfectly merciful. I believe said God has given us certain commandments as a way for us to show whether we are worthy or not to return to his presence.

I do not believe in an "all-inclusive" heaven. By that I mean, I do not believe that God draws a line in the sand and says, "OK, all of you who kept at least 51% of my commandments, you all get into Heaven. The other 49% - tough luck but you have to watch Jordan push off on loop for the rest of eternity"

As I said before, I believe in a God who is perfectly just, which means that I believe everyone gets what they deserve. Someone who was 99% percent obedient in this life will have a "different" heaven than someone who kept 83% of all the commandments. That's not to say that they will all be seperated, but their "glories" will not be the same.

Not sure if any of that makes sense.
 
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