John Stockton’s dirty little secret

[Thee Jazz Fan]

No, I think Stockton is a top 4/5 point guard and CP3 is not.

I don't think Stockton is #1 PG of all time though.

Stop trying to save face. Your on record saying he wasn’t REALLY great and couldn’t ELEVATE a team. Your dead to me


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[Ron Mexico]

I think it’s more that you seem to enjoy being critical of Stockton. Not just in this thread/convo either. I have seen this take from you in the past as well. And both times you really really dug your heels in and went on and on about it. Seemed to really enjoy trashing Stockton both times. (Of course you always throw in a “I think Stockton is great” type of comment right after telling everyone how he wasn’t really that great so that if anyone calls you a hater you can be like no I’m not remember when I said he was great?)

If you didn’t like it then it seems like you would just make a critical post or two about Stockton and leave it that and let people disagree rather than page after page of debate.

Just a bad look really. But whatever, I’m out.

That's how you take it.

I never bashed on Stockton or was critical of him in this thread.

But yes, I do disagree with people that make ludicrous claims about Stockton or other players. And yes, when people debate me about their silly claims that are false I defend myself.

Maybe it's just too sensitive a subject for you and thee.

 

[LogGrad98]

Maybe he would have shot more but passed less. He also would have shot worse if he shot more. Also you were like 10 in 88, too young to know what's happening.

There is no proven corollary between shooting more and shooting worse. That is just conjecture. It could be argued that in today's NBA he would have shot even better percentages since the game plan is built around open 3's, and in his day he shot a lot of his 3's likely late in the shot clock, under pressure, as it was viewed mostly as a secondary to a broken primary play.

 

[LogGrad98]

I’ve been watching old classics all day, and Stockton uses his left plenty. It just seems like he doesn’t because he’s not flashy or anything.


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Agreed, but there is really no denying that he was very right-dominant. I just don't think that really mattered that much. When you are that good, and you are doing it with a very minor handicap (a weak left), well that just shows an even higher skill level imo. It just cannot be argued that simply because he used his right hand more than his left it diminishes his accomplishments in any meaningful way.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Stop trying to save face. Your on record saying he wasn’t REALLY great and couldn’t ELEVATE a team. Your dead to me


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Stop trying to save face. Your on record saying he wasn’t REALLY great and couldn’t ELEVATE a team. Your dead to me


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Yes, I am on record saying he isn't perfect and isn't my #1 PG.

You are also on record saying Oscar is a better player and " Oscar Robertson would be a huge matchup issue for Stockton."

The thing you got upset about before was that I said the jazz choked in the playoffs during Stockton's prime and when they went to the finals he was declining and Malone carried a bigger load at that point.

But you also got really angry when I said Mitchell was a better rookie than Stockton was as a rookie. There's really no debate about that.

But, I am glad this all makes you so angry and I'm dead to you, that warms my heart.

 

[LogGrad98]

That’s where you and I are different. Even at the age of ten I ate, slept, and bleed jazz basketball. In those days they played on the local channel KJazz, and only about half the games were televised, so when they weren’t what was a diehard fan to do but listen to the game on the radio. While I listened to Hot Rod sing his sweet jazz poetry my brain formed the images as to what happened from listening to Hot’s call. I was every bit the fan then as I am now. I remember!!


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Some of my very best memories of my early years as a Jazz fan were of Hot Rod on the radio, he called games like no one does today. He built it in a way that you could visualize exactly what was happening. I always liked Boone a lot too. I know he was more awkward on the mic, but the depth of his knowledge of the game was undeniable. Those 2 were as perfect a commentary team as you will really ever get in sports. I miss that so much. I would give anything to hear those 2 call this next season, with Donovan coming into his own and this rag-tag team making a deep run into the playoffs.

Rest in peace Hot Rod. We loved you buddy.

 

[LogGrad98]

Yes, I am on record saying he isn't perfect and isn't my #1 PG.

You are also on record saying Oscar is a better player and " Oscar Robertson would be a huge matchup issue for Stockton."

The thing you got upset about before was that I said the jazz choked in the playoffs during Stockton's prime and when they went to the finals he was declining and Malone carried a bigger load at that point.

But you also got really angry when I said Mitchell was a better rookie than Stockton was as a rookie. There's really no debate about that.

But, I am glad this all makes you so angry and I'm dead to you, that warms my heart.

Eh, Stockton played behind an all-star and didn't really get going until his 3rd season or so for this reason. Different circumstances breed different results. There is no way to say how Stock would have performed had he been pushed into the limelight as Mitchell was. As it was Stockton averaged something like 14 ppg and 10 apg per 36 his rookie year, even coming off the bench behind Green.

 

[Ron Mexico]

There is no proven corollary between shooting more and shooting worse. That is just conjecture. It could be argued that in today's NBA he would have shot even better percentages since the game plan is built around open 3's, and in his day he shot a lot of his 3's likely late in the shot clock, under pressure, as it was viewed mostly as a secondary to a broken primary play.

That's a good point, I don't necessarily disagree that it's possible but that's all just hypothetical. The fact is he didn't, so in comparing numbers I'm not going to just add more points on or assume he could score more without sacrificing efficieny or other stats like assists.

But there are reasons CP3 put up better numbers in his peak year in my opinion such as rule changes and game changes hence why I think despite not putting up as good of numbers Stockton was a better player.

 

[LogGrad98]

People compare Simmons to Magic


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You mean like, Simmons is a poor man's Magic without the shooting ability, charisma, or overall skill? I can see that.

 

[Thee Jazz Fan]

Yes, I am on record saying he isn't perfect and isn't my #1 PG.

You are also on record saying Oscar is a better player and " Oscar Robertson would be a huge matchup issue for Stockton."

The thing you got upset about before was that I said the jazz choked in the playoffs during Stockton's prime and when they went to the finals he was declining and Malone carried a bigger load at that point.

But you also got really angry when I said Mitchell was a better rookie than Stockton was as a rookie. There's really no debate about that.

But, I am glad this all makes you so angry and I'm dead to you, that warms my heart.

Oscar is an all time great. I never said Stockton was an overall better player, but he is better at pg then Oscar. Any idiot can see Oscar would present matchup issues for the diminutive 6-1 185lb John Stockton, Oscars whole game was built around bullying smaller pg’s. All he did was back people down and shoot over the top. Stockton can’t defend against that. I have no problem saying Magic is a better all around player, but he’s not a better pg then Stockton. No one ever played the position better with more perfection then Stockton did. Stockton is the best to ever play the position period, and not sure how that can be even debated.

I do think Stockton is a top 10-15 player all time.


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[Ron Mexico]

Eh, Stockton played behind an all-star and didn't really get going until his 3rd season or so for this reason. Different circumstances breed different results. There is no way to say how Stock would have performed had he been pushed into the limelight as Mitchell was. As it was Stockton averaged something like 14 ppg and 10 apg per 36 his rookie year, even coming off the bench behind Green.

Maybe, but Mitchell was a much better rookie. He has done more with his career so far. Plus Stockton was a 4 year college player to Mitchell 2 years.

Will Mitchell continue to surpass him for their careers? I have no idea but I hope so. I doubt he has any where near the longevity but I really hope his peak is higher for awhile because that means he is a HOF player.

I'm not sure why people think that type of statement is trashing Stockton.

 

[Thee Jazz Fan]

You mean like, Simmons is a poor man's Magic without the shooting ability, charisma, or overall skill? I can see that.

Yes, and people compared Magic to Oscar. No one will ever emulate Stockton.


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