John Stockton: Writes Plea for Capitol Rioter

[Jazz Spazz]

Sept. 11 wasn't trying to force the legislature to change the outcome of an election, either.

I don't know anyone who thinks Jan. 6 was "close" attempt. It was a deranged, far-fetched, ignorant attempt to overthrow our democracy that was doomed to failure. Being ignorant, deranged, far-fetched, or doomed to failure is not an excuse, nor a reason for people to not be punished.

You liked str8line's post that said it could have ended our democracy. Maybe you haven't technically met I suppose.

Am I arguing anything here that people that break the law shouldn't be punished?

 

[Thee Jazz Fan]

Lmao shut the ever living duck up.

One is a bunch of bored Facebook moms and neo nazis protesting over a bogus conspiracy theory and one is people protesting over the treatment of black people by the police force.

These are not equivalent moral issues.

This is like arguing Semantics, yes one is a worthy cause and the other just means you’re a nut job. The moment you start trashing another man’s livelihood, and commit other random acts of violence, it’s no longer a worthy cause IMO.

Look, I believe in the statement Black Lives Matter, but the organization it’s self can **** off for all I care how they go about things and their lack of Morality.

The notion that we should stick to one ideology is sooooo moronic, and by doing so we decide the country and this is why we have the extremists on ether side. We should be taking in all sides and throwing out all the garbage. I’m so ****ing sick of the “if you’re on the other side, you’re evil and bad” this is why I’ll never consider myself with either party

 

[Gameface]

Except, there was violence at only one BLM event, and they kicked out the guy that caused it (who later turned out to be a Jan 6 rioter). There was violence at many protests, but long after BLM was gone.

When I hear someone say "BLM riots" I know that they don't know what happened other than this idea in their head that BLM got onstage and said "Ready, set, BURN IT ALL DOWN!!!" and then violent protests ensued.

Official BLM demonstrations happened during daylight hours and specifically condemned violence and rioting. Well after BLM events were over people began to demonstrate independent of the BLM organization and many of those demonstrations become violent, primarily in the form of vandalism and property destruction.

There was an important message being delivered in the wake of the George Floyd murder. Luckily (sarcasm) many people have been able to avoid that message because there were violent protests that they point to while dismissing the idea that there is a real problem in our society that needs to be addressed.

 

[fishonjazz]

That said, reading the statement from Stockton, all it said was that he felt this person had high character and implied that any actions like this were out of character for her. Nothing more, nothing less. He did not advocate for the coup, he did not explain away any involvement in the coup on her part. He just said he couldn't see her doing something like that. This is all so over-blown it is just stupid. Yeah he has some extreme right-wing views on ****, does not mean every view he has espouses every right-wing conspiracy and extremist action. It is a major failing of the twitter cesspool culture that only soundbites carry weight and therefore everyone has to be defined in 145 characters or whatever the stupid limit is. Tough to get the full measure of a human being when all you get are all the loons regurgitating and exaggerating everything that gets posted that feeds their outrage.

Stockton is a right-winger bastard, who has questioned the vaccine, he must support the coup! He must be a rabid Trump-tard!! He must be in favor of eugenics! He must be a white-supremacist! He is a right-winger, how can he be anything else?! This has completely destroyed my childhood!1!!

**** that noise.

****ing horrible time in our country's history, and frankly in our society in general, imo, tbpfhwy.

This.
This is a nothing burger.


Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[fishonjazz]

If 2000 non trained idiots storming the Capitol building in protest of the election count would end our democracy then we have some serious problems. Sept 11 didn't even come close to taking down our democracy, and if this did we have regressed tremendously. Are we so fragile now?

As we have learned since then, there were many actual congressmen/and women down with the big lie. Not just non trained idiots.


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[Brsn]

Like... storming the capitol and trying to force an election to not be certified? Like... this type of "believing their ideologies and politics are gods law"? It's shocking to me that publicly stated disagreement on an internet forum is the act tha tsome consider intolerant and "forcing an opinion", but actually storming the freaking Capitol while it's trying to certify an election is some benign "difference of opinion". No, actually one of them is protected speech and one of them is a crime. You can see which one is which by the fact that one of them is in front of court of law and awaiting sentencing and the other one can and is being challenged by other forum members openly and without any repercussions.

People are free to express their beliefs through protest. Sometimes we don't agree with why they're protesting. Maybe people who weren't malicious or acting in ill intent got carried in away in the traffic. Though there's arguably more complexities to how or why they got in there. But honestly that's not the problem and I really don't want to debate politics on a Jazz forum. It's that John Stockton the greatest Jazz player of all time is being slandered because he's tied to someone who could have been essentially a bystander following traffic. All because you don't agree with the persons beliefs or idealogies that was protesting.

 

[Brsn]

I think “what” they were protesting matters as well.
Like i think cops killing unarmed incapacitated dudes is worth protesting.
Trying to over throw the government because you believe the lies of the cult leader you worship is no bueno.

Just my opinion.


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Honest question. Do you really think the majority of people there were trying to overthrow the government? Or do you think the majority wanted their fears and concerns heard by the media and other politicans? Not too disimilar to the BLM protests. Were there innocent people with a legitment concerns at both? Yes. Were there bad characters with ill intent at both? Yes. Does Stockton's support over a friend who had fears and concerns of a stolen election make him a worse person? I don't think so.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

As we have learned since then, there were many actual congressmen/and women down with the big lie. Not just non trained idiots.


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Even so it would take a massive undertaking to take control of the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches and convince all of the massive governmental organizations to actually listen to them instead of organizing and taking them down. At any point there were multiple agencies, military groups, and militia that would take them down and end it as needed. It wasn't even close to a takeover.

Now if 100K or a million idiots stormed Washington, that would be different.

 

[Gameface]

Even so it would take a massive undertaking to take control of the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches and convince all of the massive governmental organizations to actually listen to them instead of organizing and taking them down. At any point there were multiple agencies, military groups, and militia that would take them down and end it as needed. It wasn't even close to a takeover.

Now if 100K or a million idiots stormed Washington, that would be different.

you've got to rock the soda machine a few times before you knock it over.

 

[One Brow]

You liked str8line's post that said it could have ended our democracy. Maybe you haven't technically met I suppose.

Am I arguing anything here that people that break the law shouldn't be punished?

This post? He refers to it as an attempt and an attack, and I don't see where he describes it as a nearly successful attempt/attack. However, I'm not always good at reading the subtext, so I might have missed something.

To my knowledge, I haven't met anyone on this board.

No, I do not think you are arguing for people to go unpunished. Your first contribution was about other posters being judgy and whiny, and AFAICT, you mainly think people are being too harsh towards Stockton in their opinions. I was a little miffed about the first part, and fully respect your opinion (while disagreeing mildly) on the second.

 

[One Brow]

People are free to express their beliefs through protest. Sometimes we don't agree with why they're protesting. Maybe people who weren't malicious or acting in ill intent got carried in away in the traffic.

Those people, by and large, have not been charged with anything.

It's that John Stockton the greatest Jazz player of all time is being slandered because he's tied to someone who could have been essentially a bystander following traffic.

The defendant was facing a half-dozen charges, and pled out for a single misdemeanor. While I'm well aware of the tendency of prosecutors to overcharge, they did more than just walk around, or they would be facing jail time.

All because you don't agree with the persons beliefs or idealogies that was protesting.

Stockton's earn a little derision over a variety of positions he's been taking lately.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

This post? He refers to it as an attempt and an attack, and I don't see where he describes it as a nearly successful attempt/attack. However, I'm not always good at reading the subtext, so I might have missed something.

To my knowledge, I haven't met anyone on this board.

No, I do not think you are arguing for people to go unpunished. Your first contribution was about other posters being judgy and whiny, and AFAICT, you mainly think people are being too harsh towards Stockton in their opinions. I was a little miffed about the first part, and fully respect your opinion (while disagreeing mildly) on the second.

"which could have ended our democracy"
Maybe I stretched his meaning too far, but that's how it sounded taking the whole post into account.

I'm ok if people in general, or even you, are miffed about the first part.
This place has morphed from light hearted joking and light hazing with decent discussion to minimal actual discussion/discourse due to toxicity, flaming, accusation, and labeling.

I rarely want to interact with posters these days mainly for that reason. There is no, or minimal respect for other people or other opinions. It's hard not to respond defensively and/or not flame back.
I don't need that, I have enough going on in life that I can't control. Why intentionally enter a Mad Max free for all if I can just not.

 

[One Brow]

Honest question. Do you really think the majority of people there were trying to overthrow the government? Or do you think the majority wanted their fears and concerns heard by the media and other politicans?

I think every person who stayed on the Capitol lawn (which was the majority, AFAICT) was engaged in legitimate protest. The notion that their fears and concerns were not being heard by the media, when they were getting almost 24/7 coverage in the media, is laughable, but does not make the protest illegitimate.

The people who went into the Capitol are a mixed bag. Probably there were some that were just along for the impromptu tour, but other were clearly looking to overturn the recognition of the ballots cast by the Electoral College. The degree of innocence or guilt of any individual person is beyond my ken; the prosecutors have been sorting that out.

Not too disimilar to the BLM protests. Were there innocent people with a legitment concerns at both? Yes. Were there bad characters with ill intent at both? Yes.

As long as you keep referring to "BLM protests", as opposed to policing protests, social justice protests, etc., you're putting forth a demonstrably false narrative and undercutting your own reliability.

Does Stockton's support over a friend who had fears and concerns of a stolen election make him a worse person? I don't think so.

It doesn't "make" him anything. It just reveals more of who he has always been.

 

[One Brow]

"which could have ended our democracy"
Maybe I stretched his meaning too far, but that's how it sounded taking the whole post into account.

I'm ok if people in general, or even you, are miffed about the first part.
This place has morphed from light hearted joking and light hazing with decent discussion to minimal actual discussion/discourse due to toxicity, flaming, accusation, and labeling.

I rarely want to interact with posters these days mainly for that reason. There is no, or minimal respect for other people or other opinions. It's hard not to respond defensively and/or not flame back.
I don't need that, I have enough going on in life that I can't control. Why intentionally enter a Mad Max free for all if I can just not.

Even (and especially) when we disagree, I have nothing but the utmost respect for you. I want to be clear on that. I have no desire to pull you into an argument, because I know you find them distasteful and oppressive.

Many people, due to the circumstances of their lives, found some of that light-hearted joking and hazing to be hurtful and impede their healing. I know it was not intended that way. However, I don't see the toxicity as having risen, but rather having been revealed. Further, at least when questioned, I've been pretty clear that I see myself as suffering from many of the same issues that I see in others. I see defensiveness as a refusal to a call to change, because who wants to change when things are perceived as good?

 

[Brsn]

It doesn't "make" him anything. It just reveals more of who he has always been.

So it reveals that he is the GOAT Jazz player? Who maded the biggest shot in Jazz history. I agree with this. Even if his political ideologies don't align with One Brow that remains true.

 

[One Brow]

So it reveals that he is the GOAT Jazz player? Who maded the biggest shot in Jazz history. I agree with this. Even if his political ideologies don't align with One Brow that remains true.

It doesn't reveal his basketball skill, but I agree with the rest of that.

 

[LogGrad98]

If 2000 non trained idiots storming the Capitol building in protest of the election count would end our democracy then we have some serious problems. Sept 11 didn't even come close to taking down our democracy, and if this did we have regressed tremendously. Are we so fragile now?

By this logic attempted murder shouldn't be a thing. After all, they didn't succeed in the murder. If they were competent murderers the guy would be dead now. So just let it go, amirite?

 

[Jazz Spazz]

you've got to rock the soda machine a few times before you knock it over.

So it was a "gateway" crime leading to something worse?
I could be wrong, but I didn't think the gateway mentality would be embraced here.

This was a last ditch effort to hold on to the Presidency by Trump and his minions. There was no 2nd or 3rd "rock" coming to the soda machine. They failed as they should have, not that they had an actual plan.
I do understand the fear of more events like it escalating and turning serious though, but imo the reality is that the event was a one time, spur of the moment thing that was highly stupid and part of a group frenzy of sorts. It was stupid, but not an actual threat to our government. It caught the defenses of the Capitol off guard once, that won't happen again when congress is in session. They will have plan A, B, and C now to prevent something like this from ever happening again.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

By this logic attempted murder shouldn't be a thing. After all, they didn't succeed in the murder. If they were competent murderers the guy would be dead now. So just let it go, amirite?

Do you penalize attempted murder the same as you do murder that succeeds? amirite?

That wasn't even the point of what I said anyways.

 

[LogGrad98]

When I hear someone say "BLM riots" I know that they don't know what happened other than this idea in their head that BLM got onstage and said "Ready, set, BURN IT ALL DOWN!!!" and then violent protests ensued.

Official BLM demonstrations happened during daylight hours and specifically condemned violence and rioting. Well after BLM events were over people began to demonstrate independent of the BLM organization and many of those demonstrations become violent, primarily in the form of vandalism and property destruction.

There was an important message being delivered in the wake of the George Floyd murder. Luckily (sarcasm) many people have been able to avoid that message because there were violent protests that they point to while dismissing the idea that there is a real problem in our society that needs to be addressed.