KOC had a terrible off-season

[Sloanfeld]

And you really, really just need shut the hell up about boozer too. Seriously. So damn annoying.

Fine, I'll let Sirkickyass do the talking.

 

[Borat]

Mathews aint the difference maker.

Averaging 20 ppg while starting, on good shooting, being the best perimeter defender on the team, as young 2nd year player, all while helping the team actually become a winning ball club is not considered to be a difference maker? This does not make any sense at all.

He would be lucky to average 15 ppg if Brandon Roy was healthy and playing on that team.

Roy did play in 2/3 of the games thus far, and Wes actually outperformed him. His stats as a starter are as good better than Roy's this year, while playing together AND when Roy was in his second year. And is a great defender. Is Roy a better player than Wes today when healthy? Sure. Does that in any way discount the fact Wes is capable of scoring 20 ppg when starting, playing good defense, shooting well, while helping the team to a winning record as just a second year player? Absolutely not. While Wes replaced (and perhaps bettered) Roy's production, his own replacement (Bell) can't even replace his production as a rookie.

And we would have had to shell close to 4-5 mil more this year in order to keep him, considering the LT penalties. Not worth it.

You think the difference between the production we get from Bell, who can't even do what Wes did as a rookie and is getting older and worse, is better than what Wes has done this year as a starter for Portland, putting up Roy-like numbers, is not worth 3-4 mil extra this year? You cannot be serious. Besides, this is just the first year. After that Wes has room to get even better, while Raja, who is inferior today to what Wes was as a rookie last year, will only get gradually worse.


He is'nt Eric Gordon or Jason Richardson. And we needed Elson anyways because of Okur's health uncertainity.[/QUOTE]

When you have a chance to keep great young talent for yours to come, your best defender, when defense, especially perimeter defense, is one of the biggest problems on the team, and you need to save money, you can always get a scrub like Augustine for a non-guaranteed deal to play 5-10 mins a game - IF AJ or Fess are injured. And this is only for a short time before either AJ/Fess recovers or Okur is back. We are talking about a 4th string C here. He should not stand on the way of getting a good young starter on the team for years to come.

 

[Borat]

You are a moron! EVERYONE on this board, around the league, experts said that contract was insane and no way should the jazz match. Shut the hell up already. At the time the decision was right. Maybe koc should hire you as his own personal nostrdamus so we can predict the future of players and never make a mistake like this again.

Well, KOC sure did listen to me when I said Jazz need to jump in to break up Minnesota-Dallas deal, when Wolves were about to ship AJ to them for nothing of value in return and we had better assets. Besides, do you really need to be Nostradamus to see that Wes is worth AVERAGE league salary, when he was starting for the top 4 team in the West as a rookie AND putting up good numbers all around (not far off from Deron's rookie season), played best defense on the team, and bettered that in play-offs, while getting raving reviews from Sloan about his work ethics. Really, is that not apparent that a guy like that is worth AVERAGE (not MAX, but average) salary?

Everyone assumed at the time Greg was unwilling to pay luxury tax, and if we kept Wes, that meant 5.5 mil in lux tax. But then he allowed KOC to get old guys like Raja and Elsen for 4 mil in lux tax payments. So, we are not talking about big difference here. Even at the time, this was a huge blunder, given the fact Greg actually was willing to pay money and go farther into the tax. Now, what's insane: ending up paying that money for old washed up guys, who will be nearly 37 before their contract expires, as opposed to young guy with great potential, who already did very well as a rookie?

 

[Fishsticks]

Well, KOC sure did listen to me when I said Jazz need to jump in to break up Minnesota-Dallas deal, when Wolves were about to ship AJ to them for nothing of value in return and we had better assets. Besides, do you really need to be Nostradamus to see that Wes is worth AVERAGE league salary, when he was starting for the top 4 team in the West as a rookie AND putting up good numbers all around (not far off from Deron's rookie season), played best defense on the team, and bettered that in play-offs, while getting raving reviews from Sloan about his work ethics. Really, is that not apparent that a guy like that is worth AVERAGE (not MAX, but average) salary?

Everyone assumed at the time Greg was unwilling to pay luxury tax, and if we kept Wes, that meant 5.5 mil in lux tax. But then he allowed KOC to get old guys like Raja and Elsen for 4 mil in lux tax payments. So, we are not talking about big difference here. Even at the time, this was a huge blunder, given the fact Greg actually was willing to pay money and go farther into the tax. Now, what's insane: ending up paying that money for old washed up guys, who will be nearly 37 before their contract expires, as opposed to young guy with great potential, who already did very well as a rookie?

Listen, I agree with you but to cry over spilt milk is pointless. Like I said at the time EVERYONE said to match was insane.

 

[Borat]

Listen, I agree with you

I applaud you for this. Starting your stance with calling me a moron to now being in complete agreement certainly speaks volumes.

but to cry over spilt milk is pointless.

Now it is my turn to agree. Of course it is pointless. In fact, posting ANYTHING on the message board is pointless. This is just as pointless as any other topic you have ever seen here. No more and no less. But it could be fun.

Like I said at the time EVERYONE said to match was insane.

Not everyone. Portland clearly thought it wasn't pointless, and in spite of KOC having a year to evaluate Wes, it is them now reaping major benefits. You know, just like Cavs reaping benefits of Mo Williams in exactly the same situation. Besides, I already told you that everyone on this board at the time assumed Greg was not willing to go farther into luxury territory this year. That assumption proved to be wrong, because he approved nearly same same amount this year for elder statesmen Raja and Elson. KOC just screwed up here. Choosing Raja and Elson over Matthews for a mere 1.5 mil difference in luxury tax payments was a huge mistake then as well.

 

[Fishsticks]

I applaud you for this. Starting your stance with calling me a moron to now being in complete agreement certainly speaks volumes.

Saying you were a moron revolves around two things: Saying this move screwed up our franchise and acting as though this was an obvious blunder by KOC when EVERYONE except Portland, as you say, though the contract was dopey as hell. So dont confuse my agreeing with you with you no longer being a moron. I agree now that it was a mistake like EVERYONE else does.

 

[Borat]

Saying you were a moron revolves around two things: Saying this move screwed up our franchise and acting as though this was an obvious blunder by KOC when EVERYONE except Portland, as you say, though the contract was dopey as hell. So dont confuse my agreeing with you with you no longer being a moron. I agree now that it was a mistake like EVERYONE else does.

Got you. So, I am still a moron, even though you now completely agree with me. Your brain power is beyond question, Einstein. What an asset to this board. Let me take a wild guess, you are not exactly a member of Mensa, are you?

 

[Fishsticks]

Got you. So, I am still a moron, even though you now completely agree with me. Your brain power is beyond question, Einstein. What an asset to this board. Let me take a wild guess, you are not exactly a member of Mensa, are you?

Lets be clear....your the one making moronic statements. Gald you are a member of Mensa congrats on being the sole moron.

 

[slc]

Choosing Raja and Elson over Matthews for a mere 1.5 mil difference in luxury tax payments was a huge mistake then as well.

Jazz had to sign Elson regardless. He was insurance if Memo could not play.
Jazz choice would have been Raja and Elson or Matthews and Elson.
How much more would Wes and Elson be than Raja and Elson?
How would that affect LT money?

 

[vslice02]

I usually don't like to call out individual posters, but this fresh wave of "Should've matched on Matthews" stuff is really starting to piss me off when the overwhelming majority agreed O'Connor made the correct move in July, so I went back to the old Wes Matthews threads to see what everyone thought then.

https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php?1021-Mathews-signs-offer-sheet-w-Blazers-(5-yrs-34-mil)/page31

Look, Root, I already said once 34 mil offer came out, whether KOC negotiated or not, it is a moot point from keeping Wes perspective: the offer is just too high. I don't want the Jazz to match at this point, but instead get us some other players.

https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php?1116-Great-move-by-KOC-whats-next&p=26173#post26173

No, Wes is gone. He is already grossly overpaid, now we double that with the luxury tax? Forget about it.

 

[Borat]

I usually don't like to call out individual posters, but this fresh wave of "Should've matched on Matthews" stuff is really starting to piss me off when the overwhelming majority agreed O'Connor made the correct move in July, so I went back to the old Wes Matthews threads to see what everyone thought then.

https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php?1021-Mathews-signs-offer-sheet-w-Blazers-(5-yrs-34-mil)/page31


https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php?1116-Great-move-by-KOC-whats-next&p=26173#post26173

Great find, Slice. Bravo! I had to laugh reading this, but like I told you before, I, and all others were under impression Greg was done going into the luxury tax territory. Yet he turned around and signed Raja and Elsen for about the same price LATER. Of course at the time I thought there is no way Greg could do it. That's the whole point - we ended up paying the double in luxury tax ANYWAY, because Greg agreed to it. But for old players instead of Wes. Get it?

 

[Borat]

Lets be clear....your the one making moronic statements. Gald you are a member of Mensa congrats on being the sole moron.

Which statements were moronic? That we should have kept Wes for about the same price as we got Elsen and Raja? Keep them coming, Einstein.